On The Couch with Mai Nguyen

Maddy Stratten: [00:00:00] Hi, and welcome to another episode of On the Couch, where we collaborate with experts, practitioners, authors, advocates, and influencers to explore current social themes, sex positive topics, and share stories and insights that matter.

Winnie Adamson: This podcast was recorded on Aboriginal country. We acknowledge the traditional custodians of the lands that were never seated on, which we live, work, and record upon.

Maddy Stratten: We pay our respect to elders past and present, and to those who may be visiting our website or listening to our podcast today

Winnie Adamson: while listening. We encourage you to practice good self-care, and of course, check the show notes for further information

Maddy Stratten: wherever you are, whatever you're doing,

Winnie Adamson: enjoy this episode of On the Couch.

Maddy Stratten: I'm here with May Nguyen Hi Mai

Hey

Mai Nguyen: Maddy. Thanks for having me join today.

Maddy Stratten: It's such [00:01:00] a pleasure to welcome you On The Couch and um, it's our first one for our 2026 season for season five, so it's great to have you here.

Mai Nguyen: Awesome. I'm also like equally excited and nervous at the same time to be here

Maddy Stratten: The first one of the year. I have that feeling as well. But we're in safe hands. We've got each other. We'll be absolutely fine.

Um, as with all of our episodes On The Couch, I wanna acknowledge the diversity of our listeners as we work through some potentially triggering topics today. I wanna start by saying that when we're reflecting on our own diverse, personal and professional experiences, we may need to pause the episode and to step away and take a break.

And that is absolutely okay. That is how we practice good self-care. So to our listeners, as you get comfortable in your own space, please do what you need to do and know that we've included references and links to support in the show notes, including past episodes, breaking [00:02:00] down community care and collective holding.

As you know Mai, every season we have an episode dedicated to the trans experience. Last season, we hosted local drag stars, Cherry Ripe, Roxy Horror, and Lawrence of Australia, and we unpacked drag as a performance and trans is an identity. Previous seasons, we were joined by Axel, Nathaniel Rose, discussing trans health, medical consent, disability, and queer healthcare.

We also had clinical nurse consultant Maggie Smith, who expanded on trans health is a human right. Actually over, um, the years, our very first On The Couch episode released was understanding transgender lived experience with Trans Hub. So we encourage our listeners to go back to some of these foundational conversations as we build on them more today.

And in every episode we use the concepts of fields of existence and coordinates of belonging. Leah from Co-culture Communications, talks about these [00:03:00] concepts as a way of connecting with each other as we are beings with a field of activity made up of the stories we've been told, our, ancestors that have existed, the land under our feet and the places where we stand and all of these form who we are in this moment as contextual beings.

So Mai how do you define and locate yourself and what are your coordinates of belonging?

Mai Nguyen: Awesome. Thanks Maddy Um, before I do get into those points around how I identify and how I belong in the community, I would like to share that I am only one trans person. And so I'm really excited to be here today to kind of share my personal journey and experiences and the hopes that it'll connect with some trans people in the community, but also acknowledging that it is one experience and we are a very diverse community, and each person will have their own individual experience.

Yeah. Um, but in terms of who I am as a person, um, I was born and raised in [00:04:00] Cabramatta, Fairfield, Liverpool, in southwestern Sydney on Darug Land. Um, currently living on Gadigal Land. I'm a descendant of Vietnamese refugees who fled to Australia by boat after the Vietnam War. And I was raised in a very hardworking family growing up in Vietnamese restaurants that my parents ran in Cabramatta.

So I really owe it to my parents through the strength and resilience, that they had throughout their migration and refugee experience, as I feel like that experience was really passed down to me and how I walked through the world today, um, and how I walk through the world as a trans person. I'm also really blessed to have a sister who growing up is also queer, which brought a lot of comfort during my youth and still very much does today.

I'm a transgender woman who is also still on my personal daily journey in navigating, learning and, and uncovering my transness. Currently, I am in a relationship with the person that I would call the love of my [00:05:00] life, which has been a deeply healing experience for me as a transgender woman. I'm deeply spiritual and I'm guided by my Buddhist practice and connection to higher powers in all aspects of my life.

Professionally, I've worked in the public health sector for the last eight years across various roles in NGOs and health organizations, primarily focused on LGBTQ plus multicultural and HIV and sexual health.

Maddy Stratten: Mm-hmm.

Mai Nguyen: And in my personal practice, um, as a creative person, I'm also an artist, a performer, and a pole dancer.

So I would say that these are the different points around where I would claim as my connections and areas of belonging.

Maddy Stratten: Thanks so much for sharing these coordinates and I guess these yearning with us. I know our listeners will be really keen to hear more and connect with your story throughout this episode.

I also have loved learning more about you in the planning of this episode. We've [00:06:00] been able to have meetings as we've put this episode together, and it's been really nice to reconnect with you after all of these years and, and to see where we are now in our careers, but also in our personal growth.

It's really cool and um, it's been a real privilege to have this episode as, I guess, a way of bringing us together again. It's been lovely.

Mai Nguyen: Yeah. Yeah, and I, I think for the listeners as well, like me and Maddy we actually met about, I think seven or eight years ago at the start of my career in the sector and it was a very different time and I looked very different as well.

So it has been nice reconnecting with you today as well. Yeah.

Maddy Stratten: I mean, I was blonde, so I mean, big changes for me over here.

Mai Nguyen: I changed my gender, so Yes,

Maddy Stratten: yes. It's been really cool and I've had the honor of hearing parts of your story as we're, um, planning this episode together, and I really love [00:07:00] how you talk with so much respect and empathy about your experience in particular with your Vietnamese refugee parents. Can you walk our listeners through this and how your connection with Vietnamese culture and Buddhism has been a catalyst for bringing your family along in seeing you and your transness?

Mai Nguyen: Yeah, so navigating my transness with my parents has been a journey that's taken over 10 years. When I first explored my gender diversity, I was exploring it as a non-binary person in my early twenties. And during this time, there was really no language or points of reference that I could use to help my parents understand what the heck I was talking about when I was trying to explain my gender experience.

A lot of the concepts and the words that I had at the time were very rooted in western framings of transness. And I would even go on to say that a lot of the jargon we use to talk about transness in the western context [00:08:00] comes from like discussions around gender theory and are often used in very quote unquote educated spaces.

And this was very disconnecting for my parents who came from a Vietnamese background, speaks English as an additional language, and also didn't have opportunities to finish their education and finish high school and go to uni. So when I spoke about my trans experience, it didn't resonate with them. And growing up I actually grew up in a religious and spiritual household.

Um, my mother is a very passionate and practicing Buddhist, and my dad is also a Catholic, so I was raised between Spiritualities as well, going to Catholic school on weekdays, but then going to Buddhist temple on weekends. And over the years I learned a lot in Buddhism about Quan Am. So Quan Am. Many of you might know her as Guan Ying in Chinese.

Mm-hmm. Um, she's a Boddhisatva of compassion [00:09:00] and the story behind her is that she basically deferred enlightenment to remain on earth to help others reach their enlightenment. And within the context of Buddhism, she's, she represents compassion, love, mercy, and also helping others. And one of my favorite depictions of her is a picture of her with a thousand arms, because mom always said growing up that each one of those arms was an arm that was helping one other person.

And so within the Buddhist tradition growing up, my mom always said that one arm is able to appear in everybody's life in different forms. As any gender, as any creature, any person that will help you in your time of need. And even throughout the Buddhist tradition, when Buddhism originated in South Asia around India and Nepal, Tibet, um, she was actually represented as male.

And as Buddhism, as the Buddhist tradition moved, Eastwood, her representation [00:10:00] became female. So hearing these stories about the ways that she took on different genders, I was like, oh my gosh, this is actually a point of reference that I could connect with to my mom. And so it was one kitchen counter conversation where I was like, Hey mom, you know, Quan Am, and how you taught me that she could take many different genders and forms.

That's basically what my personal experience of gender diversity has looked like. And it made her realize, oh my gosh, like I kind of get what my child is talking about. And this transness, it's actually intertwined in my culture and my spirituality. And I think it started to soften her heart to be more open to having these conversations with me.

But my dad, it was a very different journey, so he had a lot more challenges in accepting my queerness. And I think that comes from his lived experience of being Catholic. And when I was 18, I was actually kicked out of [00:11:00] home for being queer, and we actually didn't speak for a very long time. During this time, I didn't know this until much later, but my dad actually spent years connecting with the neighbors across the road, um, which really helped with our relationship because the neighbors across the road are a Cambodian family and they have a gay brother.

And they shared with my dad about the difficulties that they experienced with their elderly parents where they didn't accept their gay son for many years and didn't talk to each other. And they spoke about how they lost so many years in their relationship. Um, eventually those neighbor's parents found a way to love and accept their son, and they even attended their son's wedding with their husband.

And I think for my dad, connecting with these neighbors and hearing this story, it was actually a powerful moment that was a transformative experience for him to find acceptance and love in me because it demonstrated the power of connecting with [00:12:00] peers from similar cultures who are similar age groups as my father who had similar lived experiences.

And if they could say that they could accept their queer family member, then so can he.

Maddy Stratten: Mm.

Mai Nguyen: So today both of my parents are now some of the biggest supporters and advocates who celebrate me and are proud of my transness, and they are actually the ones that constantly remind me every day to live my life for myself and not for others.

And I think if you come from a Vietnamese background or an Asian background, you just know how powerful that is because in our cultures you're always taught about caring about what others think about saving face. And so for them to say who cares about what others think, like, that's just been so powerful for me as well.

Maddy Stratten: Yeah, huge. And it's just, it's just such an honor to hear that story and, and hear where those conversations are happening. I can so see the conversation at the kitchen counter and I can see your dad and having those conversations with [00:13:00] the neighbors as well. And I think, you know, this cultural context feels, like such a, an important part of your story and hearing about how you have had so much humility and grace in navigating these conversations about culture and gender, um, is quite inspiring. And I'm sure many people who are listening are feeling quite inspired when, you know, if they are sitting in that same kind of difficult position with their family.

Um, especially hearing how far your family have come. And you've said this line to me before and I wrote it down in that they are affirming while learning. And I think that is such an honest description. I wrote it down when you, mentioned it a few weeks ago because I think that really reflects the story that you've, you've shared with us.

I've heard many trans people talk about how misgendering, can still happen within a community of allies. Sophie talks about it in our episode with Trans Hub and how the best thing to do if you have misgendered, someone [00:14:00] is to apologize, correct yourself, move on quickly and gracefully without making it a whole thing.

In our episode with Maggie Smith, they talk about misgendering and, and being called the wrong name in the health system and in a hospital context. And Maggie's recommendation, was if you feel up to it, um, put in a complaint into the system. Drive change. Maggie also speaks to the workers who wear pronoun badges.

It's not tokenistic. It's a visual sign that you're safe with them. And I remember, chatting earlier in the year about a real gap in cultural diversity needs not being met in trans stories in Australia, and the strength of tapping into these culture conversations, um, Mai can you expand a little more on how you approach these conversations about transness and culture with compassion when working with community?

Mai Nguyen: Mm. I I think some of that context you've just given is really powerful. I think, like, I don't wanna sugarcoat the [00:15:00] experience of what it feels like to be misgendered or, misnamed or referred to incorrectly as a trans person.

Like for me personally, that still is a difficult situation when I do come across it. But I've also had a lot of learnings , over the last few years around how to navigate these situations, especially when it comes to people who, like we said, are affirming yet learning. And so. When it comes to my parents,, although they do accept me and my trans womanhood today, like they're aware of my trans womanhood, they're proud of it.

They celebrate me. They do still find it challenging at times to use my new name. She, her pronouns consistently, they get it sometimes and they still revert back other times. And for a while, especially early on in my transition and my gender affirmation, I mistook those moments as them denying my transness.

But I realized that when I [00:16:00] spoke about my transness with them, they actually were deeply supportive and encouraged me to pursue what I needed to affirm my gender. And again, that was a 10 year journey for them to even get to that point. Like that didn't happen overnight. And although it does take more energy for myself to bear those moments of the misgendering, I realized that it took me over 20 years to love and accept and understand my transness and find the right language.

So I also needed to give my parents that time and flexibility to learn and make those mistakes as well. And this for me, was personally an example of what compassion in transness looks like. Not everyone will get it right the first time, but if I can gauge and see that they're trying, then I can kind of show that love and compassion for them so that they can also meet me with that love and compassion as well.

But that also doesn't mean letting it go. That doesn't mean like. Not telling them. When it still hurts my feelings, it still [00:17:00] means that I still have to periodically correct my parents and gently know them, that the misgendering does affect me. But I also affirm them by saying, but I also see how much you are trying and I see how much you still support and love me, and know that when you get it wrong, it's not you trying to hurt me.

And as a trans person of color, I've faced many forms of discrimination throughout my life. And historically I realized it created this storm inside me. And when I would get misgendered, I would feel my nervous system firing off. I would feel disengaged, anxious, angry, and at times, those feelings would really eat me up inside and I would let them just run through my body for the rest of the day.

But I realized that when that experience happened, I also had the power to transform that energy into something positive rather than let it hurt me inside. And I realized that those moments of gently correcting people, letting, giving them the space to [00:18:00] apologize, um, finding a way to rectify that moment together, it becomes really transformative and powerful.

And I, I actually realized that over the last few years, yes, there's a lot of people who we would claim as anti-trans or not accepting of trans people, but I realized that that anxiety around that, for me personally, I started to like be on guard all the time with people when really I learned that there's a lot of people in this world too, who support and love trans people.

They just don't have the right language and words to talk about it and feel like they're walking on eggshells around it. Mm-hmm. And I realized that I might be the first trans person that they're interacting with. So at those times, I might actually have to be the one that takes on a bit of that labor to help bring them along in that conversation.

And when I do spend a bit of that labor, I actually realized that the rewards that come outta that conversation are really powerful.

Maddy Stratten: Mm-hmm.

Mai Nguyen: So something that I've tried to [00:19:00] practice more these days and be mindful of when I'm advocating for myself as a trans person, is finding opportunities to build bridges compassionately, rather than pushing people away.

And to do this, I realized that I had to lead by example. Mm-hmm. So this includes setting the tone of a conversation around mutual respect, curious dialogue, active listening to others, and being able to communicate respectfully in the hopes that I would expect that in return for myself and as hard as it can be, even in moments where on initial presentation,

our opinions and beliefs actually go against each other. How can we actually find this as an opportunity to connect and find common values rather than create distance? And I really learned this from academic and thinker, Dr Irshad Manji, who's a queer Muslim woman, an academic, and she has this idea of moral courage, which I really recommend our listeners to go look up where she equips [00:20:00] people with the tools to communicate and listen in a way that heals and unites people rather than creates, division.

Um, and Maddy, would you be okay if I shared an example of a story and how this came about?

Maddy Stratten: Yes, please. I know, um, you've got a great story and I'd love, I'd love to share it.

Mai Nguyen: Yeah, there's, I have this story I wanna share around a powerful moment where I found. This opportunity with someone that initially I thought would just not like me as a trans person. And so about two years ago I started a new job at a health service, which is always a daunting experience for me as a trans person starting a new job and entering a workplace, uncertainty around the climate of the workplace, the people I'm gonna have to work with, and whether they are accepting of me as a trans person, as a person of color, whatever have you.

And one of my colleagues, um, was a South Asian Muslim woman in her forties who was deeply devoted to her faith and we were having this [00:21:00] conversation one day. And you could tell that it took us a bit of time to like warm up to each other. Mm-hmm. And we're having a conversation where she was asking me about my transness and she had a few questions, but she also was asking me about what my transness means to me, but also sharing with me that in terms of her connection to her faith and spirituality, she was taught that for someone to be trans or homosexual or part of the LGBTIQ plus community, she saw it as something that was actually immoral and didn't align with her spirituality. And she let me know this as politely as she could be, as anyone could be.

And in that moment I had this internal sense of like, okay, my nervous system is activated. How do I counter this? How do I defend myself? But rather than jumping straight into firing back. I took a moment to [00:22:00] respectfully show more curiosity in where she was coming from. So I asked her questions and I wanted to listen to her.

So I asked her, you know, tell me more about your spirituality and your faith. Like, tell me more about your relationship to Islam. And she shared with me so much about her practices and the principles of Islam, the ways that it taught her the importance of love, kindness, compassion, prayer, and devotion. It taught her to be a really charitable person, and she always found opportunities to do charity each year. She told me that under Allah, everyone is equal. No one person is better than another. No one has the power to judge others, and we are all equal under the judgment of Allah. And I realized that I really connected with a lot of these ideas she was saying, and I realized, oh, we actually have a lot more in common than the initial moment of difference.

And I expressed to her, you know. Everything you've just said, I connect with that and that's part of my spirituality. And I asked her, you know, do you [00:23:00] think that everything you just said around love, compassion, non-judgment, do you think that trans people are deserving of that? And she actually said, you know what?

True, like regardless of what any person identifies with or is, because of my spirituality and faith, I have to show everyone love and compassion. And from that moment, she showed so much respect and curiosity about transness and the trans community. And I watched her to take the time to find the resources and learn and improve her ways of working.

And even when a few trans people came through the service, she was so amazing working with them, um, using their name and pronouns, finding clever ways to update their details in the system as well. And we actually developed a really beautiful friendship where we bonded and we shared culture, spirituality.

And she continued to really ask and learn about my transness. And she also shared with me experiences of transness within her culture and community as well. And I just wanted to share this because I also want to [00:24:00] share the power of compassion. Creating respect and dialogue. But I also wanna acknowledge that, you know, these approaches aren't easy.

They're not for everyone. It won't work for everyone as well. But I wanna share that these approaches worked for me with specific people that I was able to hold their hands with and walk alongside together. But it relied on me gauging where their hearts and intentions lie. Are they trying to be hurtful and demeaning, or is their heart in the right place, but they're still making mistakes and learning?

And so I just wanna share that these are some experiences where I have to take the onus on myself as a trans person to kind of hold these conversations. But as hard as that can be, at times, I found that the powerful transformations that come out of it and the relationships that I formed from it with people that I thought I would never connect with, it's just been really like miraculous as well.

Maddy Stratten: Hmm. Yeah, it's such a great [00:25:00] story and thank you so much for sharing it. I know it re will, um, and is resonating with our listeners today. Um, that really good takeaway around meeting community where they're at, staying true to yourself and who you are and how you present, how you hold and carry yourself, but I also love the message of, of standing strong and forcing your boundaries and being active where you feel safe to be active. Um, and also that message that, you know, pushing back with violence, is not the answer. And I think that story is just so beautifully, demonstrated that.

When we spoke, uh, last you were talking about how shame and stigma impact confidence to seek, and access healthcare services. Um, but having the acceptance of family and the support from community improves not only access to healthcare, but self-worth, which is so important for peers and allies to [00:26:00] hear.

Mai Nguyen: Yeah, that's right. And so from my personal experience, I had to navigate a lot of shame and stigma within myself as well. Mm-hmm. And that was a massive barrier to being able to access healthcare or live my life authentically as a trans woman. And so for many years when I was living my life as a non-binary or gender fluid person, in my early twenties, I was presenting both feminine sometimes and more boyish other times. Mm-hmm. And although I knew my femininity and womanhood was something that I truly wanted to embrace, I didn't have that confidence or safety, especially after the trauma of experiencing that violence at home as a teenager to really grasp and hold that experience.

And, I felt like my non-binary expression was something that allowed me to tap into my femininity. But it was also something that I could take off when I was visiting my parents and when they weren't fully on board or understood [00:27:00] my experience.

Maddy Stratten: Mm-hmm.

Mai Nguyen: And so I did carry a lot of stigma and shame throughout those years, and it became a roadblock to embrace who I am as a person.

And for many years I even thought about wanting to start feminizing hormone treatments for like five years throughout my twenties, on and off. But I was too afraid because of what my parents would think or if they would even accept me, but once my parents fully accepted me in very, very recent years, I would say in the last two, three years, it really gave me the confidence to pursue medical affirmation.

And they even called me before my first doctor's appointment to tell me how much they love and support me to go for what I want to go for and do what I need to do to feel good as a trans person. And that experience was ultimately life changing because it gave me the strength to fully embrace my womanhood and authentically access the health [00:28:00] services I needed as well.

Because like I said earlier, I used to always worry about what others would think about my transness, which deterred me to be confident in accessing health services. It deterred me from connecting with other people, like family members and extended family.

Maddy Stratten: Mm-hmm.

Mai Nguyen: But honestly, I think the powerful and most like life changing turning point was the moment my parents said, we accept you and we love you. Because I realized that no, nobody else's opinions mattered at that point because it didn't matter to them. And I think that cultural weight, that family weight was finally lifted from my shoulders. And I felt like I was able to finally walk through life with my head held high as a trans woman.

And. This experience really showed me how important family and community acceptance is for trans people. And that's why when we do the work that we [00:29:00] do across the sector, when we develop health or social programs, campaigns, and advocacy. I think it's so important that we develop programs and campaigns that connect with trans people's families, and especially for trans people of color who haven't been as represented in these programs and these campaigns.

Making sure that this work also resonates with communities from culturally diverse backgrounds as well, because the idea of cutting them out just doesn't work and we need to bring people along and bring people in.

Maddy Stratten: Yeah.

Mai Nguyen: Um, I also just wanna quickly go back as well a little bit that, that point that you, you were sharing about that violence and violence is not the answer to violence.

I, I did also wanna share that that has been also another massive takeaway for myself in mm-hmm. What I've learned over the years that often, um, for me personally as a trans person, historically, I think it's really easy to retaliate with anger and frustrations, and I can understand why [00:30:00] that's the case.

But something I also learned that in the face of violence, I realized that violence doesn't resolve violence, whether it's violent speech, violent thoughts, the way we think about people, violent actions. And I realize countering like violence with hatred, resentment, frustrations, it only continues to multiply that hatred, anger, frustrations, and even when we think we're standing up for the right causes.

And I realize that as hard as it can be, and even though it works for specific situations, love, compassion, forgiveness, paired with accountability, trust building is truly a healing experience. And I think something that we as a whole society can do better in the coming future is that less of that us and them mentality and more of the we and togetherness as well.

Maddy Stratten: Yeah. That's beautiful. Thank you so much, Mai And I think you know your story around, [00:31:00] accessing healthcare services as well and, um, I guess having the acceptance from family and support from community really demonstrates how important allyship is and the very real impact that it has on our trans friends and community members.

And I think, you know, when we're going about our work and our lives, we need to, um, remember that those, those moments really do have that impact and can make such a change, to somebody's life. So yeah, thank you so much for sharing that and also, jumping in around the, messages that you have that you're wanting to, put out in this episode as well.

So thank you. Um, one of the things I like about hearing our guests coordinates of belonging is the opportunity to connect with guests across different episodes of On the Couch. My mind went straight to the drag star episode. Um, drag as a performance trans is an [00:32:00] identity and how, um, similar to our guest, Cherry Ripe for you.

Um, your pole dancing performances we're a safe space and community for your gender affirmation journey. So, please share a little bit more about this.

Mai Nguyen: Yeah, so I actually started my pole dancing journey when I was 23, and I'll be turning 30 in April. That was about seven years ago, and I actually started my pole dance journey at Sky Sirens, which is this amazing pole studio that no longer, um, exists, but it was on Crown Street in Surrey Hills, and I saw that you're gonna be interviewing Katia Schwartz in a few episodes.

So, um, Katia was the person who ran the studio, and I'm forever grateful to that space in, supporting me to start that journey. Mm. So I actually fell in love with pole dancing immediately because it was this physical activity that required strength, flexibility, stamina, [00:33:00] which I really wanted to build.

Also, it requires you to like, have an ability to really endure pain as well. And yet it's so beautiful, feminine, graceful, and it really helped me find a way to present myself more femininely in my body as a trans person and to look after it. And so over the last few years as a dancer, I've performed across many spaces in the arts scene.

I've performed as part of Club Chrome, which is a queer POC pole dance and sex worker collective. That was started by a few friends. I've done a few cabaret shows, arts festivals. I've performed at queer clubs and strip nights, and I even recently performed, um, over the recent weekend for Worship's Queer Lunar New Year event, which celebrated the year of the horse.

And I did this really cheeky performance that was inspired by pony play fetish. And yeah, so pole dancing [00:34:00] was this really beautiful space where I was able to express my femininity when performing. And I did this through, you know, outfits, hair, makeup, wearing eight inch stripper shoes, and being able to be feminine through my movements and my dance style.

But early on I realized that. This femininity that I expressed really stayed in the pole in club space and at the end of the night it would be taken off. And over time I realized this feminine expression began to bleed into my everyday life. And I realized, oh, hang on. Like this isn't a costume that I'm putting on.

It's actually who I am that's being revealed underneath. And it just, having this conversation reminds me of a conversation I had with one of my psychologists last year where when I was navigating my trans womanhood, I was talking to her about the anxiety. I felt about feeling like when I'm presenting [00:35:00] feminine, people will just see me as someone putting on a feminine costume or pretending to be a woman.

And I think she was the one that altered that belief about myself. And she said, you're not putting on a woman's costume, you're actually taking off the boy costume you've been wearing this whole life and you're revealing the woman that's underneath. And I think that's what I experienced through pole dancing as well and my gender, um, expression and identity as a trans woman.

So. I really owe my gender affirmation journey as a trans woman to pole dancing and the community of dancers and strippers who welcomed me into that space and who taught me everything I know in that space as well. So yeah, I really owe it to that experience in bringing out my true feminine expression.

Maddy Stratten: Yeah, and I love the connection with our upcoming guest Katia as well, and for our listeners, we actually didn't know this until, you know, two days ago when [00:36:00] Mai said, oh, actually, you know, I dance at Katia's studio. And I was like, wow, that's really cool. I love that we are building this community On The Couch and, um, it's a really safe place to, to be and to share and to learn from, from people, so, mm-hmm.

Thanks so much, Mai. As we're going through this episode, our listeners may be picking up on some common themes around stigma and discrimination, as well as hearing your inspiring story of empathy and compassion for self, family, community, and in romantic relationships. It's a real empowering and hopeful strength-based narrative.

Before we get into talking about romantic relationships, I would love to hear, more about the most important relationship, and that's the relationship that you have with yourself as a trans person. So Mai how do you show compassion for yourself when navigating the healthcare system, relationships and when overcoming many challenges?

Mai Nguyen: Yeah, so [00:37:00] finding compassion for myself as a trans person is an ongoing process. Yeah, it hasn't been an easy process. It's been really important for me to find ways to shut out that internal noise and self-criticism that I personally carry constantly as a trans person. And I sometimes, I actually feel like the most transphobic person that I have to interact with , on a daily basis isn't the heckler or the hater out in public or on the street.

I realized that it's actually my internal self and my internal dialogue, um, and the beliefs that I have about myself, all the internal questions that I throw at myself, like at what point are you trans enough? Do I look women enough when I'm standing in front of the mirror and I'm like pulling myself apart and any detail on my body that even sparks dysphoria?

And I realized that there is a real hurt we experience from the world as trans people, but. I [00:38:00] personally realized that I could also be hurting myself a lot internally with all of these , internal dialogues. And so something that I've had to discover and it's I'm still discovering is how do I practice self-compassion?

And so for me it's about finding ways to speak kindly to myself, to not always pull myself apart. Often I find we can say the meanest things about ourselves that we would never dare to say to another trans person, or we would never talk to our friends or someone we love the way that we talk to ourselves.

Maddy Stratten: Mm-hmm.

Mai Nguyen: And so I also realized that with that I can actually support myself in the way that I do show up and support my friends and. My partner, he was actually the one who has helped me find different strategies to practice this. Um, he introduced me to this practice of self affirmations. Mm-hmm. And as corny as this sounds, which I'm about to share, [00:39:00] I found it really powerful in, I guess, transforming a lot of these internal criticisms that we have, where something that we did one day is we pulled out all of these colored pieces of paper and he was like, okay, ins, instead of writing down and thinking about all the things you don't like about yourself or that you're critiquing, how can we flip all of those things on its head and write the positive version of that?

Mm-hmm. So on each piece of paper we wrote down like, I am trans enough, or I am enough, or I'm a beautiful trans woman, or I love my body, or I feel, I feel beautiful in my body. I'm grateful for my body and. We actually stuck this up next to a mirror and mm-hmm. As hard as it was, he made me stand in front of the mirror and read these things out loud to myself, making eye contact to myself.

And I really recommend to people to try, try this because [00:40:00] it felt so cringe at first and I could barely even make eye contact with myself. But over the next few weeks I realized, oh, these ideas and these positive comments and affirmations I'm making are coming so more natural. And I realized how powerful they were in challenging and transforming my internal thoughts about myself.

Maddy Stratten: Mm.

Mai Nguyen: Um, another thing that I try to do is surround myself with people who love me and I love back where we can affirm each other and support each other. My peers, whether it's other trans people or other allies. And I think there is power in connecting with allies who support us as well.

Yeah, I think self-compassion for me has also looked like finding ways to continue practicing forgiveness for others. I think forgiveness is so powerful and when we're able to forgive others, I find that we're able to also forgive ourselves and be kinder to ourselves as well. So that's been truly healing [00:41:00] and I think for me, self-advocacy and standing up for yourself and setting boundaries is another form of self-compassion.

Hmm. So I've had to learn to use my voice over the last few years and found that using your voice is one of the deepest acts of self-compassion. Because I personally have a history of not being able to speak up for myself, feeling like I was an inconvenience. If I had to speak up for myself, an inconvenience to others, or feeling helpless, like if I spoke up, like it wouldn't change anything.

But I realized that that created like a sense of internal hurt and like being unheard, you know? And I realized it's actually not me, not being kind to myself, to not speak up and advocate for myself. And at times I found it meant that like when you don't speak up for yourself, you are almost crossing your own boundaries before someone else crosses them for you as well.[00:42:00]

So learning to respectfully advocate for myself in healthcare environments, within relationships, um, within the workplace, these different experiences have been instrumental to my self compassion. But I also acknowledge that advocating for ourselves can be a very exhausting mm-hmm. Experience. And it's also important to know when to take a step back and when to rest.

And rest is also a form of self-compassion as well. Mm-hmm. So these are just some immediate thoughts around how I've learned to practice self-compassion over the last few years.

Maddy Stratten: Yeah. And I think it's really hard, isn't it, to see yourself how other people see you. Yeah. And, and I think that's what I, what I'm hearing, um, when you're sharing your story, and I think it's something that we can all be a little bit, better at or we can practice a little bit more, is, is having that self-compassion and that kindness and, and it might feel cringe having to tell yourself that you're great, but [00:43:00] eventually you will believe it.

Yeah. And it takes time and you know, not feeling like you have to rush it it's not just one moment. It's this consistency of the practice of self-compassion.

Mai Nguyen: That's right. And I think that word practice is really important. 'cause it's not linear and I don't, it's not, I'm not saying that I don't have my bad days either, of course. And, um, so it's always this up and down experience, but it requires that practice and practice is ongoing. It's ever growing. You might even find new things that work for you over the years and something that worked for you one year might not work for you another year.

So, yeah. Yeah,

Maddy Stratten: exactly. And I loved hearing too about, um, your partner being part of this practice as well, and, and you've got your practice and self-compassion, but you also have other people around you to support you. And I think that's, a really great segue into talking around romantic relationships because relationships is one of the, the key topic areas

we provide trustworthy information at Caddyshack Project. So, [00:44:00] um, talking about relationships in this episode is no surprise. Um, so I'd love to talk about that a little bit more with you now, if that's okay.

Mai Nguyen: Yeah. Great.

Maddy Stratten: Okay, cool. Uh, sex and intimacy can be positive, empowering gender euphoric experience, but not all relationships are healthy, and that can be true for anyone.

We know that for trans and gender diverse people, there can sometimes be additional challenges like societal stigma, discrimination and safety, increased vulnerability and risk of intimate partner violence, sexual fetishization, emotional and psychological stress, online and in-person victimization, including verbal abuse, sexual coercion, physical violence, as well as complex relational challenges and stress related difficulties in relationship formation and maintenance.

I'm gonna exhale because that's a lot.

Mai Nguyen: That's a lot.

Maddy Stratten: That's a lot. And it's a lot to read out. And I had to read it because I didn't wanna miss anything. And [00:45:00] there's probably a lot more that I have missed. It's a lot. And I think it's really important that we acknowledge the challenges and the stresses in relational context for trans and gender diverse people.

And actually take some time to reflect on this as we, as allies continue to advocate and be active bystanders for our trans friends and gender diverse community. Whether a trans person looking for support or an active ally, it's important to know what services are available.

Mai can you talk us through your thoughts around these challenges and your recommendations for support?

Mai Nguyen: Yeah, so that was a lot to listen, listen to. It's a lot, the very harsh realities for trans people's experiences as well. And on a personal note, like I do connect to a lot of those experiences. Mm-hmm.

And without going into the nitty gritty details, like I have had lived experience of like domestic family [00:46:00] violence throughout my whole life. I've experienced intimate partner violence, I've been a survivor, I've been in abusive relationships, sexual coercion, violence, street-based harassment, stalking, all of it, you name it, I've been there, done that.

Mm-hmm. And I think, I think at first I wasn't sure if I was going to acknowledge all of those experiences, but I also thought it was important to just name it at a high level and just, you know, de-stigmatize these experiences and acknowledge that even though I've been sharing these positive experiences I've had as a trans woman, I've also encountered a lot of these negative ones as well.

And so something that I've learned, um, over these last few years that I've seen as very important in healing and recovering from a lot of these experiences is the power of allies and peers in my life, um, who understand these realities and had the tools and knowledge and skills to [00:47:00] support me over the last few years as well.

And I actually found that in my personal times of need, it was these allies who really helped support and advocate for me, um, that really were life changing, especially in those moments where you are defeated or you don't have the strength to really support yourself in those moments.

Maddy Stratten: Mm-hmm.

Mai Nguyen: And so for the listeners and people working in this space or, friends and lovers and peers and family members of trans people, I think it's important to get across the resources and services and knowing how to support your trans loved ones. Mm-hmm. And so I think some great resources that were really helpful for me were like the health services that exist in Sydney and New South Wales.

So, you know, ACON's Transhub Platforms, Q Life, the Gender Center, Twenty10, the T150 Clinic at [00:48:00] Albion. There's some really great services that support trans people and some other great resources with information include things like the Say It Out Loud website, but also the Transfemme website by the Zoe Belle Gender Collective has also been a really life changing resource that I also shared with my partner as well when we first started dating that. Um, just to give a bit of context, um, that resource is for trans fems and trans women and their partners, specifically the cisgender men in our lives. And I think, I think that resource has been so powerful in really helping shape my life, and I'm sure it has for many other trans fems in building really healthy relationships.

Um, but yeah, just name dropping a few different resources, like get knowledgeable, get upskilled, get across it, and, you know, show up for your trans, friends and loved ones.

Maddy Stratten: Yeah. [00:49:00] Fantastic. And these resources, again, can be found in the show notes of this episode as well. So, um, jump in there and, and have a little look.

. So when we're talking about sex relationships and trans and gender diversity, as you said, Mai sometimes we can get locked into this negative narrative of expectations and it can feel disheartening when desiring a relationship. We also know that many trans and gender diverse people and their partners form maintain and experience satisfying and fulfilling healthy relationships.

The research also tells us that some, um, relationships get stronger through gender affirmation, seeing improvements in communication and affirming sexual experiences. So when we were planning this episode, we talked about wanting it to feel hopeful and empowering for our listeners

what a better way to do that than to hear your romantic relationship with your partner, Lincoln, his support and your gender affirmation, and how you navigate cross culture and [00:50:00] sexuality. It's a real strength-based narrative and a really beautiful love story. So, Mai, please tell us all about it.

Mai Nguyen: I'm gonna, I'm gonna blush and get shy in this section, but Yep.

So, when I think about my relationship with Lincoln, I think the first thing that I always think about is how genuinely blessed I feel to finally find the person that is, I would call the love of my life. Mm-hmm. And the person who's been truly the best support for me as a trans woman over the last few years.

And the funny thing is that I think neither of us saw this relationship coming and it completely caught us both of guard.. But we always felt like there was something pulling us closer towards each other and something that felt really bigger than the both of us. And so at the time when both of us first met, we were both in such a vulnerable and transformative space in both of our lives.

So I was personally grappling with my identity as a trans woman, and Lincoln [00:51:00] was only one year out of prison as well. So surprisingly, even though Lincoln is a cisgender man, I found that he's been one of the most affirming and supportive people in my life as a trans woman, which I totally would never have expected from a cisgender man.

I always felt like he affirmed and saw my womanhood even before so many others did, and he's been by my side the whole time. The shoulder for me to lean on the person I could confide in. He is attended all of my important medical appointments, like when I started my hormones or when I had an operation last year for my deviated septum, which was nerve wracking because entering any medical space as a trans person is nerve wracking, especially when my documents at the time didn't match my identity.

But he was the one that came along with me and held my hand and helped advocate for me with the doctors and the nurses, and he really showed up for me every single time. [00:52:00] So throughout our relationship, we really found ways to affirm each other in powerful ways. Like he's been affirming to my transness in such a beautiful way where he's been really open, curious, and proactive.

Um, he's never been in a relationship with a trans woman before, so it's been a very new experience for him. But like I said earlier, from the beginning, he was reading, researching, going on the websites, um, and wanting to understand my experience better so he could love me better. And I also had to do a lot of learning myself and find ways to affirm him around his experience of incarceration and holding that with love and care rather than shame or judgment or perceived shame and judgment as well.

And what's been beautiful in our relationship is the ways that we support each other through our spirituality as well. So he has his own personal relationship with God. And I have my personal relationship with Buddhism, and this has been [00:53:00] really healing because I have carried religious trauma in my youth as well, especially as a child going to an all boys Catholic school as a kid.

So that was not the best time for me. But witnessing Lincoln's healthy and loving relationship with the higher power mm-hmm. Has actually been a really healing experience for me as well. And we actually bond over our shared values in our spiritualities and those shared values of compassion, love, forgiveness, interconnectedness.

So we actually find ways to connect and, and hold each other accountable to these principles and practice our spiritualities together, even though we follow different spiritualities. And of course we have had to navigate our differences in our relationship as well. Like we're a trans cis couple relationship.

We come from different cultural backgrounds. We have an age gap. We've lived very different lives. [00:54:00] But it also really surprised us how even across our differences, there were so many shared values and experiences we actually hold. So for example, my experience of being trans and his experience of incarceration on the surface, there's such different experiences.

Like what would a transgender woman and a man who's been incarcerated can even connect on? Like, what do they have in common? But underneath that, we found so many shared experiences and shared anxieties about safety. Belonging, being misunderstood by the people around us. We developed resilience and confidence to find ourselves.

Um, we learned the importance of spirituality in both of our journeys and the drive to now live life unapologetically and authentically as us. And through these experiences, we also developed a deep sense of empathy for each other and a deep sense of empathy for others and other people from marginalized backgrounds as well.[00:55:00]

And today, we both now work in the sectors that support these parts of our communities. So I work in the trans healthcare space and he works in the restorative justice space, supporting guys coming outta prison and as a community advocate as well. So there is this deep mutual respect that we have and we're both constantly learning from each other.

I think throughout this experience there's also been a really tender experience of rediscovering my body as a trans woman on hormones with Lincoln as well. And I feel really blessed that I get to share this experience with him. Like he's really supported my agency in intimacy and I've actually found my voice when being intimate with Lincoln, which I've never had before.

Um, I actually realized that he might even be the one of the first partners to ever even ask me what it is that I desire during intimacy. And I actually rarely ever experienced that in past relationships, if [00:56:00] ever often finding that I had to shrink myself or that other men would impose their desires on me.

And I felt like an object that would be shaped to other people's desires rather than being someone who was fully autonomous and had agency as well. So with Lincoln, I feel safe enough to speak up and say what I need. Mm-hmm. And that's also because he gives me the time to hold my hand and ask these questions, check in and respect my needs.

And that's been life changing for me as well. Um, communication I find has also been a massive part in our growth together. Mm-hmm. We've had to really walk through the mud early on in our relationship and unpack those attachment styles and those shadows within ourselves that we aren't always fully aware of.

And we've had to learn how to really listen to each other and understand where our triggers may be coming from early [00:57:00] on in our relationship when we're still forming that trust as well. And something that we found is early on when we had disagreements, we actually developed this mantra in our relationship that when we have a disagreement, it's actually an opportunity for us to run towards each other.

And we say, you know, let's run towards each other. Rather than see these disagreements as opportunities to create distance, there were actually opportunities to create closeness. We always have found that we had each other's best interest in mind and that the disagreement was a puzzle that both of us were navigating, not a debate that someone was trying to win.

And so what moves me the most throughout my relationship, um, with Lincoln is that even though we've both experienced really deep pain in our lives, we've actually both been able to transform that pain into deep, pure love and kindness for one another. And I found that really, really powerful. [00:58:00] So I've just gone on a really long word, vomit, tangent.

I love it about my boyfriend. But I wanted to do this because I guess I wanted to share this bigger message that we just heard about the violence that trans people, and especially trans women experience. But I also wanted to share that there are opportunities for truly loving and respectful partners for trans people, especially trans women and trans fems partners who will affirm you.

And it might take time to finding that person. It might take time to heal and unlearn and stay open and finding these people, but they do exist. And I think for us as trans people, it's important to have that hope as well.

Maddy Stratten: Mm, yeah. That's so beautiful. I have goosebumps and I'm sure many of our listeners, um, will re-listen to that story as this really positive, your positive perspective on, um, [00:59:00] on your experience.

And also, you know, your vulnerability and your honesty and just how real you've been in today's, conversation. So thank you so much. I think your story really shows how when someone is respected and has positive experiences in their relationship and negotiating consent, the more, likely they are to experience gender euphoria in sex intimacy and relationships.

So, um, thank you again so much for joining us. Before we sign off today, I wanna leave some space for you Mai to share any final thoughts for our listeners, uh, to continue to engage in this conversation with compassion and respect. There are so many fantastic. Key messages that you've shared throughout this episode in your story, but I wanna just hand it over to you with the final word.

Thanks Mai.

Mai Nguyen: Yeah, I guess I wanted to end, this podcast on the note that compassion is truly a powerful [01:00:00] force, in our lives. And I wanted to share this Buddhist imagery that really stuck with me throughout my life, that my mom shared with me growing up. And it's the image of the Lotus Flower. Um, for our listeners who aren't aware, the Lotus flower is this really beautiful flower that grows in water, but it requires mud and the muddiest water to grow.

And so in Buddhist philosophy, the mud represents suffering, anger, resentment, fears, and all of the messy parts of our lives, and what it means to be a human. While the lotus flowers symbolizes compassion, love, self reflection, and beauty. And so the lotus flower requires mud to grow. And when it does grow, it grows above the water, out of the mud, untouched by the mud.

And it's just this beautiful, gorgeous thing. And so the teaching and the lesson that comes from that is that within our everyday life, we will be suffering from all sorts [01:01:00] of negative experiences, but we also have this power to transform our sufferings into compassion and love for others and for ourselves.

Winnie Adamson: Thanks for listening to On the Couch. We create this podcast because we are allies in actively challenging discrimination, microaggressions and exclusionary behaviors. We wanna create spaces where people feel safe to share their thoughts, knowing that they'll be heard and respected. Such an environment fosters collaboration, innovation, and contributes to a more inclusive society.

Follow us on your favorite podcast platform. That way you will receive every new episode when it's released. You can also help us grow the podcast by giving us a rating and leaving us a review. Connect with us on Instagram and Facebook, and share on the couch with your friends, colleagues, and family. On the couch is made by the team at Caddyshack Project.

[01:02:00] Until next time, peace, love, and protection.