On The Couch with Dr Giselle Woodley & Dr Sarah Vrankovich

Maddy Stratten: [00:00:00] Hi, and welcome to another episode of On the Couch, where we collaborate with experts, practitioners, authors, advocates, and influencers to explore current social themes, sex positive topics, and share stories and insights that matter.

Winnie Adamson: This podcast was recorded on Aboriginal country. We acknowledge the traditional custodians of the lands that were never seated on, which we live, work, and record upon.

Maddy Stratten: We pay our respect to elders past and present, and to those who may be visiting our website or listening to our podcast today

Winnie Adamson: while listening. We encourage you to practice good self-care, and of course, check the show notes for further information

Maddy Stratten: wherever you are, whatever you're doing,

Winnie Adamson: enjoy this episode of On the Couch.

[00:00:51] I'm Winnie Adamson, and I'm with my cohost and friend Maddy Stratten.

[00:00:55] Maddy Stratten: Hi, Winnie. I'm really looking forward to today's episode as we're talking about something that is becoming increasingly central to young people's lives, how they learn about sex, relationships, and consent in digital spaces.

[00:01:08] Winnie Adamson: Yes. And this raises some big questions around strength-based approaches and supporting young people in navigating these really important topics online.

[00:01:17] Maddy Stratten: And to help unpack this, um, with us more, we are joined by two incredible researchers working in the intersection of sexuality, education, digital cultures, and sexual violence prevention.

[00:01:28] Hello and welcome on the couch, Dr. Giselle and Dr. Sarah.

[00:01:33] Giselle Woodley: Hi. Thanks. Thanks for having us.

[00:01:35] Sarah Vrankovich: Thank you.

[00:01:36] Maddy Stratten: I wanna move into using the concepts of fields of existence and coordinates of belonging to introduce our guests, Giselle and Sarah. These concepts by co-culture communications demonstrate that our beings are a field of activity made up of the stories that have been told our ancestors that have existed. Lands under our feet and the places where we stand, and all of these forces form who we are in this moment as contextual beings. So we'd love to start with you, Giselle. How do you define and locate yourself and what are your coordinates of belonging?

[00:02:11] Giselle Woodley: Well, thank you so much for introducing to me to this concept.

[00:02:14] I thought it was a really cool way of working out where you belong and where you come from. Um, so I guess my name's Giselle Woodley My parents were both immigrants and my father came to the UK and my mother from Calcutta in India. And growing up in terms of my bloodlines and knowing where I come from has actually been a little bit tricky because I never truly felt like I, I belonged.

[00:02:32] So I'm first generation Australian. Um, never truly felt like I call myself a person of color. Um, as part half my family have experienced horrendous racism, which continues to grow, I would mention in so-called Australia, due to immigrants and Indians being, um, labeled as the scapegoat for the housing crisis in Australia.

[00:02:50] But I've never really truly felt I can claim I'm white either. So I grew up with mixed cultures and that. That spills over into a lot of elements of life. So individualism versus collectivism, which has certainly, become more prominent as I've had a child. And seeing those differences, Hmm. And bringing up a child, family, being a village versus more self-serving needs, um, I guess, with my two backgrounds as well.

[00:03:11] I I'm also come from the colonizer and the colonized, and that manifests in different ways as well. Um, in India, like much of the world, patriarchy is alive and well. And I come from a long line of women in my bloodline who've been silenced, oppressed, and limited. And I live work and grew up on the unseed lands of the Whadjuk Noongar people of the Noongar Nation in Perth, Boorloo on the West coast and the lands.

[00:03:32] Um. That shaped my blood blind and so-called Australia, are experiencing, rising sexual violence rates. And like some, some people here as well. I studied sexology and I sort of learned that evidence suggests that sexual knowledge has the potential to contribute to individual and sexual wellbeing and ultimately can reduce sexual violence.

[00:03:51] Um, so this understanding underpins a lot of my work and my social activism drive, and I yearn for better ways to prevent sexual violence, rates as a victim survivor myself. And, um, I think this also spills into the digital realm, which is where I've sort of found myself working and I'm committed to this work and I wanna know other ways of working.

[00:04:08] And I deeply value social justice, empathy, human rights, connection, and pleasure, I would say as well. Mm.

[00:04:15] Winnie Adamson: Thanks so much for sharing. Giselle. Um, Sarah, thank you. We'll jump right in to you. Uh, what are your coordinates of belonging?

[00:04:23] Sarah Vrankovich: I grew up in a small town in Western Australia and my mom and dad, uh, were fruit and vegetable farmers, and they worked every day except for Christmas and Easter.

[00:04:33] So I grew up in a laboring family in a really isolated town, and I feel really very lucky actually to say that I have parents that. Are still in love, even though it grosses us out. They still share kisses and cuddles on the couch. Um, and they treat each other with lots of respect. But growing up, something that my mom always said to me and to my younger sister, is that.

[00:04:58] The one thing she wanted for us in life was to never have to rely on a man for anything. She said it so much, and I think from a young age, this really planted a little feminist seed in me. Um, and I was always thinking so much about what it meant to be a woman in a man's world. Mm. So fast forward a few decades, I feel very connected to my queer community.

[00:05:23] I feel very connected to the different people in my life that bolster my flourishing, but unfortunately, as a victim survivor of sexual violence in ,. A lot of ways, I also yearn very deeply for what my life might've been like if I didn't have those experiences. So even though I know education is only one pillar of prevention, I often think about how different my life would've turned out if I had been taught from my head to my toes.

[00:05:55] What I say goes, or that I'm the boss of my own body. It's sometimes a very bitter pill to swallow that I will never know that person. But at the same time, I'm also very, very proud of the person I have become and that I have this responsibility to research sexual violence, which I know is not something that's possible for all victim survivors.

[00:06:18] Hmm.

[00:06:20] Winnie Adamson: Thank you so much for sharing. It's beautiful to hear your backstories and, um, what's really enforced and informed your work because it's both very clear how passionate you are about the work that you do, and so it's wonderful having you join us today to hear all about that. Uh, for those listeners who might not know, Giselle and Sarah are both core members of Bloom-Ed, which is a national advocacy peak body committed to ensuring evidence-based, relationships and sexuality. Education is accessible to all people in their homes, schools, communities, and online spaces.

[00:06:56] Maddy Stratten: When we talk about. Comprehensive sexuality and relationships educational as we'll call it today. RSE. Many people may first , think about school-based or even whole of community approaches, and we have explored these On The Couch here, in the past episodes.

[00:07:12] Winnie Adamson: Yes, we have. We have talked with Katrina Marson, Tom and Adie from Sticky Q's, Dr. Tessa Opie and Karen Bradfield, who have all shared important strategies on promoting relational wellbeing and reducing sexual violence. And we'll link to episodes in the show.

[00:07:29] Maddy Stratten: But today we wanna shift the conversation slightly and unpack RSE in the digital landscape, building on discussions that we had last season with Professor Kath Albury about digital capabilities for sexual and reproductive health. As we know, the reality is that for many young people learning about bodies, sex, relationships, and identity doesn't just happen in school-based settings anymore.

[00:07:52] It's happening online. And by online. We're talking about social media platforms, search engines and creator led content. We know that young people are turning to social media and online communities to find information and explore topics that they might not feel comfortable discussing elsewhere. At the same time, we're seeing increasing debate and honestly a lot of confusion around how young people should access sexual health, um, and sex education in online spaces, especially with the latest restrictions. And I guess introductions of industry codes.

[00:08:26] Winnie Adamson: Yeah. Sexual health organizations, educators, and clinicians are already navigating restrictive content moderation policies, algorithmic suppression, and what's often referred to as shadow banning where sexual health content becomes less visible or harder to find online.

[00:08:41] And we see some of this when, we promoting On The Couch and other sexual health information on social media.

[00:08:49] Maddy Stratten: Yeah, that's right. That social media censorship is real for us. Um, and we're also hearing a lot of questions like, how do digital platforms govern sexual content and how do we reach young people and support their digital, sexual literacy, autonomy, and access to accurate information online?

[00:09:07] Giselle, your work sits right at the intersection of all these conversations looking at digital governance, image-based abuse, ai, deep fakes and technology facilitated sexual violence.

[00:09:19] How should we be thinking about the role of digital spaces in RSE?

[00:09:24] Giselle Woodley: Um, great question, and I totally feel you on the algorithmic suppression. I'm, if I'm not posting about sex and porn, I'm posting depressing content about the ongoing genocides that are facing. So, um, digital platforms have a field day with suppressing all my content.

[00:09:39] Winnie Adamson: Mm-hmm.

[00:09:39] Giselle Woodley: Um, all of which come under the codes. So I dunno about you guys, but I'm starting to see, it even further suppressed in light of the industry codes, which is a really, really difficult, um, space to work in. And I think really, really important issues that we should be able to talk about. But there's usually no concessions made for like human rights, educational content, and digital content.

[00:09:57] And I guess that comes back to thinking about the role of digital spaces in RSE and,, my PhD research, looked at, Australian teens and their perspectives of pornography, but as well as pornography, how they learn about sex and relationships and how porn, was played a role in that as well.

[00:10:14] And I think, you know, we have the SSASH survey, run by Latrobe and, there's been a number of other studies where we, we can see that. Young people are, are growingly using other sources of information or were, it's going to be interesting to see what's happened in light of the social media ban. Mm-hmm.

[00:10:29] But what came through before our research, before the industry codes, all the social media ban had been implemented is that young people using online, um, as well as their friends who were getting their, probably their information from online sources.

[00:10:41] Maddy Stratten: Mm-hmm.

[00:10:41] Giselle Woodley: Um, online was their main source of information.

[00:10:43] And so, um, parents, they were great to talk about values and attitudes in relation to sex. And then you could bring. Bringing back to the family home, those, those different beliefs about, um, you know, such emotional, personable information and then schools tended to communicate the biological, mechanical aspects of sex.

[00:11:03] But not mentioning the word sex is something that they relate as well, that sex tends to be talked around, not about. And so they wanted this nuanced information and, and more in-depth information. And digital spaces was so core to that. And, and that includes pornography, which a few young people, particularly queer young people, mentioned that it was an important source of information for them.

[00:11:23] And that, you know, I think we tend to focus on the terrible aspects. We tend to disconnect it from its purpose as a masturbatory aid. Um, in terms of sexual pleasure, which teens brought up, um, a couple of teens, also brought up that they weren't gonna go to their mom to talk about, going down on a woman.

[00:11:40] So, um, but they wanted to know the information they,. They're curious beings. They have information at their fingertips. They want to be, um they want to know this information and they're not gonna go to their parents. And they, they recognize that there's this unspoken line that what can be spoken about in schools, and we know there'd be community backlash as well.

[00:11:56] If schools were to tackle these sorts of things in the detail that teenagers want. And so yeah, It really comes down to rights, the human rights despite gender, age, sexuality, um, and any other given factor that you should have rights to sexual information and expression in the way that you see fit.

[00:12:13] Maddy Stratten: Yeah. Yeah. Especially when we're talking about this tension, I guess, in protecting young people and also making sure that they can still access that accurate information and, and as you were saying, a very current conversation around online regulation is happening right now. It's happening right now.

[00:12:30] It's happening with the rollout of these new industry codes. This new phase requires, I guess, social media and porn sites to prevent, um, under eighteens from accessing material, featuring pornography, violence, self-harm, suicide, and disordered eating. It's a really big conversation, and I guess that's why we're here today.

[00:12:49] Um, thinking about the value of age verification as a first line of defense to protect young children from accidentally accessing harmful content while also recognizing that the increase of surveillance and reduced privacy can impact young people's access to sexual health education content online.

[00:13:09] I'd like to hand over to the, the both of you to share your reflections on this. And also thinking about, if this current approach is in fact strengths-based.

[00:13:19] Sarah Vrankovich: I can start off, Giselle will be able to speak more specifically about the industry codes than I will be able to.

[00:13:26] Um, but I'll say that this kind of surveillance and suppression in my perspective, and I feel like others share this perspective, it doesn't come from a strengths-based perspective.

[00:13:37] Maddy Stratten: Right.

[00:13:37] Sarah Vrankovich: Firstly, there. Very little good quality research showing a link between young people using violence and pornography consumption.

[00:13:46] And maybe Giselle can talk a bit more about the research that's out there, but even for argument's sake, let's say that there was. Young people are largely accessing porn like Giselle said, because they're curious and they want to learn about sex. So acknowledging that young people are craving knowledge and skill building, and it could have been an opportunity to fill that gap and build their agency to navigate the digital world.

[00:14:14] This could have been achieved by including content on digital literacy in the mandatory curriculum, improving RSE and other mechanisms to fill that gap or providing adequate funding for teacher upskilling on how to actually talk to young people about explicit content online.

[00:14:32] Giselle Woodley: That was beautifully said, and um, I totally agree.

[00:14:36] It's sort of, um, we, we've done a bit of research over the years of teens, perspectives of regulation and pornography as well, and specifically the perceptions of age verification measures. Um, and although the Australian government, committed to $6.5 million age assurance trial, which has been released now. You can read that if, if you don't mind, going through hundreds of pages of very tech heavy language. Mm-hmm. Um, but there's quite a few age verification measures that they've gone through in that for the industry codes and both the social media ban that platforms have to adhere to or, or they have a selection, but they all have pitfalls or, um, concerns.

[00:15:11] So it's usually the effectiveness is balanced with, security and privacy of information. So a lot of these age verification methods depend on a third party provider and us trusting that third party provider basically when, when data is the most valuable commodity in the world. Um, so I think when, when we were talking to teens about age verification, they sort of suggested they could use workarounds, they're gonna use VPNs, which we're seeing.

[00:15:36] VPN apps, top the charts. We saw a 1400% increase in the UK when they implemented age verification for porn. Wow. So we know that there, that porn's not necessarily being reduced in consumption, we just know that people are using VPNs and they're getting more tech savvy and people who didn't know what A VPN was certainly do this week.

[00:15:52] Sarah Vrankovich: Mm-hmm.

[00:15:53] Giselle Woodley: Um, so. So yeah, teens relay that they, they value education far more than any regulatory measure. And they pointed out that the impacts of pornography, that they would be much better discussed in a classroom as part of a comprehensive suite of sexuality, education skills.

[00:16:08] Um. I, I think that's all I could just say. I've probably got a lot more to say, but I don't wanna keep it go, go too techy. Yeah.

[00:16:17] Maddy Stratten: We might need to have a, a tech dictionary that we roll out along with the episode just so that we can go back and be like, V-P-N-V-P-N. No, that's so fine. Um.

[00:16:29] Yeah, I, I just wanna continue, this conversation around, um, these online environments, and I guess exposing young people to harm, but as you say, can be a really powerful space for learning peer support. Um, also thinking about the access to sexual health information. Of course.

[00:16:46] How do we balance those two realities, Giselle?

[00:16:51] Giselle Woodley: Um, it's a really tricky question and something I'm trying to personally answer and address in public policy and advocate for young people's rights, um, because it is such a fine balance.

[00:17:01] But I think protection, or at least under the guise of protection of children, these different implementations. And I'm gonna go a bit more techy, I guess, is because, with the accelerated use of VPNs, it's going to be interesting to see if then start banning VPNs for various reasons. So VPNs obscure someone's IP address so you can re reroute it to a different country or location so people can bypass the porn hub ban or whatever else they're trying to do.

[00:17:26] Um, but Denmark last year tried to ban VPN use, but due to Public backlash, um, circled back on that. But we do know in the age assurance trial details that, they were playing with digital id. And so I guess it, it, it's sort of like this protection of, of children and young people, and, and, you know, sexual information is caught in the crossfire, and that's not just for teenagers as well. Mm-hmm. So I think balancing those realities is, is making sure that we are recognizing human rights, recognizing human rights for all individuals despite age, gender, sexuality, race, et cetera, culture.

[00:17:56] Um, and there's so much attention to the harms and the safety and protection that in my work, I try and advocate for those freedoms of expression and information because they're not as well supported, I don't think. I think it's so much focused on safety and harm that people are forgetting about young people's rights and adults' rights as well.

[00:18:13] Sarah Vrankovich: Mm.

[00:18:13] Giselle Woodley: Um, and this is something we can advocate for in schools and individual levels, wider communities to consider these rights and autonomy and the agency of young people, which I think is really overlooked and, and so vital,

[00:18:24] Maddy Stratten: right? Yeah.

[00:18:24] Winnie Adamson: And I'd love to keep diving into that, talking about what we're focusing on this like safety aspect and harm, reduction and minimization, but what are some of the ways that, um, we can have more effective solutions that look at protecting other people from harm without minimizing their autonomy and their sexual rights and access to that accurate information.

[00:18:47] Giselle Woodley: Do you know what's really interesting? So I pointed out that young people really valued pornography as a beneficial source of sexual information. And although there's evidence to suggest that the detail in which they were doing that I wasn't quite prepared for when I was conducting the research. But I will say that teenagers also relayed that, they recognized that pornography as a whole was not an ideal sexuality educator.

[00:19:07] Um, and that's because of the widespread, um. We can't really say that anymore, but the widespread accessibility and usually the algorithms driving them to, aggressive content and a lot of them were looking for soft, romantic, loving depictions of sex and not always able to find that. And they wanted these visual representations of sex.

[00:19:26] So although they were noting that, look, in an ideal world, it probably wouldn't actually be pornography as an sexuality educator. Um, but they, they were thinking if there was informative representations of sex and bodies and, that's what they wanna watch porn for they're using it as somewhat of a guide, even if that wasn't the initial intention. And that's not always a good thing.

[00:19:43] Um. So, yeah, in more practical terms I think filling those gaps of information is so important. That's why I really advocate for digital spaces. But then our young people are being repressed and infantalised, you know, so even if they wanna role play their sexual scenarios, which our research with adults in the UK has found that that's a great way to explore sexual identity, um, and, and sexual expression that's now also repressed.

[00:20:06] So they, they, they're constantly having these spaces limited to them. And I think that's really, really crucial for queer, rural based, um. People of color and Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander teens especially, um, who are more affected by these, by these different changes, basically.

[00:20:23] Maddy Stratten: Yeah, it 'cause it does make me think about, you know, how even consent is role played in media and seeing a bit more of that in, in TV shows and film recently, which is really cool to see. But, um, I'd love to see , even more of that because that's also something that, uh, is not seen in pornography as well.

[00:20:40] . Um. Because it is so interesting, this idea that digital spaces can support young people's sexual health literacy rather than simply being framed, as risk environments. Uh, as you mentioned before, the SSASH survey, it does remind me of professor Jennifer Power's work when she spoke with us On The Couch.

[00:20:59] Uh, last year. She talked about online spaces acting as important entry points for young people seeking information about sex and relationships. And we are meeting with her again this year to explore the 2026, results from that survey, which is exciting. Awesome.

[00:21:16] Winnie Adamson: I wanna bring you back into the conversation, Sarah, particularly when we start thinking about how the digital spaces intersect with sexual violence prevention.

[00:21:25] When we think about technology facilitated sexual violence, it's clear that education, digital literacy, and consent conversations are also increasingly happening in online spaces too. I'm thinking the Teach US Consent Digital campaign is such a good example of this.

[00:21:40] Maddy Stratten: Yeah.

[00:21:40] Winnie Adamson: But from your perspective, how do you see RSE Digital literacy and violence prevention intersecting online and how can we support and help equip young people to navigate these digital environments safely?

[00:21:52] Sarah Vrankovich: Yeah. Thank you. Um, and I think that it's important to start off by acknowledging that digital campaigns like hashtag Me Too and also the Teach Us Consent campaign. They are often critiqued for being quite narrow in their scope, in largely focusing on white, heterosexual, and middle class cohorts. So although they seem powerful, oftentimes they're powerful in platforming, certain voices and other voices get left behind.

[00:22:22] So I think that's always important, um, to mention. When we think about digital campaigning. Um, but to answer your question, I think it's also really important to acknowledge that for young people and for all of us, the digital world and the real world are completely enmeshed a huge amount of friendship, like Giselle was saying before, and relationship building is online or opportunities to role play online. This includes navigating conflict, and because we're not really treating the digital world as a real world, we are not seeing social and emotional literacy for digital context taken seriously as important for sexual violence prevention. Not in all spaces.

[00:23:06] The crossroads of RSE digital spaces and sexual violence is where very, very challenging issues fester. A really good example is something that I know educators have been dealing with for well over a decade is non-consensual image sharing. This is sending nudes around, it's a failure of RSE, uh, it's a failure of digital literacy.

[00:23:27] Um, and it's obviously sexual violence and this continues to happen and we are still seeing it a very heightened rates. I haven't seen anywhere that it's gotten any better. Um, but yeah, it really is the intersection of those three things where these, yeah, challenges emerge. Um. And I guess it would feel very disingenuous for me to sit here and sprout different ways that educators can equip young people with the tools they need to navigate digital spaces.

[00:23:59] Because we know that teachers are more often than not very under-resourced and often not trained in RSE. We know there's not good enough government funding to ensure young people across Australia have access to good quality RSE. No matter what their postcode is, and we know that we're living in a time where there's really heightened resistance to this work, especially for gender and sexuality inclusion.

[00:24:27] There's a lot of different challenges and resistances that we're, we are fighting against. Ultimately we know that telling young people not to do something won't work. We've learn this time and time again. Like when sex ed was focused on abstinence and sex in marriage, we know it has the opposite effect.

[00:24:46] So from a strengths-based perspective, a piece of advice that I always like to keep, um, handy, I guess, and I know it's easier said than done, is that I think. It's really important to ensure that young people have opportunities to build community. And this could be online, in person, in schools, and hopefully outside of schools as well, because the research shows that even when people have knowledge about a topic or something's wrong, it's the peer influence that's way more influential.

[00:25:18] And we see this with bystander intervention where people know they're seeing something that's wrong, but they're not gonna intervene if it's their friend. If they're with friends who are laughing, there's no way. Um, and that's, yeah. There's so much research to support that. Mm. So I think enabling young people's access to cultures of care is so important.

[00:25:39] Winnie Adamson: Mm. I love that. I actually just thought of a quote then by Bruce Perry, which is, there's nothing more influential than a neurologically safe relationship.

[00:25:48] Sarah Vrankovich: Mm.

[00:25:49] Winnie Adamson: And I just feel like that. Backs up what you're saying about that. 'cause it is so important that we have community

[00:25:55] Sarah Vrankovich: Yeah.

[00:25:56] Winnie Adamson: To connect us. And I think it's something that we're constantly, all of us, especially young people, are lacking in times.

[00:26:02] So yeah. Thanks so much for sharing that perspective on community and peer cultures. Um, Giselle, did you wanna jump in and say anything here?

[00:26:12] Giselle Woodley: Um, I guess more it makes me, um, I think about online communities and how important they are to teenagers and it just really makes me lament these legislative changes because they, they really disconnect young people, particularly rural based, young people from their communities.

[00:26:27] Mm. And I guess just circling back to kind of what Sarah said about they need the skills to navigate digital spaces that, that's become clear. It's really vital and important and Yeah. The message they're receiving according to the teens we're researching is, you know. Activities and, um, sexual expressions such as sexting or intimate communications, they're just told blanket, no, don't, don't do it.

[00:26:48] Mm-hmm. You know, digital footprint, all the dangers, it could be leaked, et cetera. And then I asked teens, well, is that working? And they said, absolutely not. There's daily. Daily nude sent and the social media ban didn't prohibit messaging services. So that's, that hasn't gone, Um, so yeah, I think young people need to be equipped with digital skills and it comes, back, down to base level comprehensive sexuality education skills as well. And I think we need to come back to that about, even in digital spaces, we need to respect each other's bodies, as we would and should in real life as well.

[00:27:16] And we saw that happening on Grok with non-consensual AI generated imagery. So young people have this new technology they've gotta contend with, where even if they haven't shared a nude,, a nude can be made of them. And it really comes back to those skills that we need to teach people. You don't do that.

[00:27:29] You, you have to respect each other. Um, and there absolutely needs to be consent and and respect.

[00:27:33] Maddy Stratten: Hmm.

[00:27:34] Winnie Adamson: Thanks. Sarah, I really wanna focus on your work and that strength-based approaches to sexual violence prevention. So your research actually really pushes the boundaries of conventional prevention approaches being grounded in feminist frameworks and art-based methodologies, centering, affirming sexual experiences, agency and community connection.

[00:27:55] So historically I think violence prevention initiatives have quite focused on that individual risk and reducing harm. But recently we're starting to see more of a shift and focus on active learning at the heart prevention. And makes me think of last year, our episode with Katrina Marson and she talked of sexual wellbeing as the baseline we're aiming for, and sexual violence prevention being supplementary to that.

[00:28:16] Mm-hmm. So can you talk to your work, particularly how you are contributing to debates challenging these dominant frameworks?

[00:28:25] Sarah Vrankovich: I'll start off by saying I'm always happy when Katrina Marson is thought of when people are thinking about my work. Um, she's such an icon and also one of our friends, so that's very, yeah, very lovely.

[00:28:37] Um. When I started doing research, I noticed that all of the studies that have been done in sexual violence, and obviously not all of them, but a very big portion, were really heavily focused on identifying risks and figuring out how to mitigate those risks. So at the time, there was very little research focusing on the strengths that people or communities already have and how prevention can work to bolster or further those strengths. So for example, in sexual violence studies, there was a real absence of research exploring how young adults are having really great intimate sex and thinking about how we can use this knowledge to inform prevention.

[00:29:25] So that's what I did in one portion of my PhD. I spoke to young adults about how they navigate sex and what sex actually means to them. Instead of focusing on the negative and figuring out how to mitigate, those sexual violence experiences from the deficit. And of course that has a place as well.

[00:29:45] Um, but strengths-based frameworks should work alongside that. Um, so they shift prevention away from managing risk to cultivation and possibility by thinking about how we can nurture, um, environments and relationships and structural conditions that enhance people's experiences of sex. So my colleague, Dr.

[00:30:10] Sophie Hines and I have started developing some principles for doing strength-based sexual violence research and their works in progress. But just briefly, um, we believe that research, like I said, should shift from deficit based narratives to looking as well at the positive influences on sexuality. So. Not just focusing on harm.

[00:30:37] There needs to be puzzle pieces that also focus on how people build great intimacy in their everyday lives. Um, the second principle is instead of viewing sexual violence and consent as just a moment of communication, which, um, I should preface this by saying consent is what a lot of sexual violence prevention work focuses on.

[00:30:59] So we should be examining the broader structures and influences, um, that shape our sexual experiences. So, for example, factors like heteronormativity, transphobia, ableism, and, and many more that shape our experiences. And lastly, we believe that strengths-based approaches should actively challenge and transform gender norms, roles, and relations and power imbalances that shape sexual agency.

[00:31:29] So this obviously goes beyond the gender binary that positions men as potential perpetrators and women as potential victims. And we believe that when we center strengths rather than deficits in sexual violence research, we can create prevention efforts that not only just. Wanna work to reduce the likelihood of experiencing or perpetrating harm, but also nurture cultures of meaningful connection, where empathy, care, and ethical and positive friendships and relationships become the norm.

[00:32:06] Mm.

[00:32:06] Giselle Woodley: Mm. It also reminds me, Sarah, of you talking about strength base of why pleasure is so important to speak about in the classroom. Yeah. And, and people really shy away from it. And, you know, we're so focused on consent, but we're finding that teens um, are.

[00:32:20] Conceptualizing consent is permission where women tend to be the gatekeepers of the consent and, and males tend to be the seekers of consent. And it's quite a problematic way to look at it. And it's creating fears in young people about having sex. We're seeing in the, um, demographics we're speaking to, but if you were to center pleasure.

[00:32:37] Which I'm sure you would see as a strength-based, approach. And if, and if teens know that it's meant to be mutually pleasurable, this sexual experience, it's not just I want to get off and, and, and have, have it off with someone. It, it's meant to be this, this dance that you do together. And I think more emphasis on that would be so beautiful in RSE as well.

[00:32:56] Winnie Adamson: Mm-hmm.

[00:32:57] Giselle Woodley: Absolutely.

[00:32:58] Winnie Adamson: Definitely agree with that. Um, I think that often focusing on that deficit frameworks really push, to young people to think, well, how far can I go rather than, well, what do I want to pleasure or have experience in? Yeah. Um, thanks. It makes so much sense thinking about those approaches and really shifting that focus.

[00:33:20] I think something that really stands out to me is your prevention approach is recognizing capacity, strengths and lived expertise of individuals and communities, particularly those historically marginalized within mainstream prevention research. And I love to hear your focusing on those areas and promoting them more in your work. It's really important that we're promoting more of these diverse experiences to young people as well. Mm. Thank.

[00:33:45] Maddy Stratten: Yeah. And thank you so much for sharing both of your research and passion with us. There are these really strong themes that, um, I think we can all hear that underlines both of your work.

[00:33:56] The importance of advocacy in this space and the work that you both do at bloomed. Um, I'm also thinking about evidence-based comprehensive RSE as the key driver for creating positive and safe outcomes that ultimately increase. Individual wellbeing, support healthy relationships, and reduce sexual and gender-based violence.

[00:34:18] Um, I know Sarah, that you are having to jump off now and head to a really exciting event at ARCHES So congratulations on two big speaking events in one day. Um, and thank you for making time for us.

[00:34:29] But, we might say goodbye to you now and then pass over the last final, question to Giselle,

[00:34:34] Giselle Woodley: thank you. So, and you speak, so you speak so beautifully. Sarah, I can listen to you all day.

[00:34:39] Maddy Stratten: Right?

[00:34:40] Sarah Vrankovich: Feel the same way about you. Thank you so much. Um, yeah, thanks again for allowing Giselle and I to present together.

[00:34:46] Um. And yeah, this has been so lovely. I look forward to listening to the rest of it.

[00:34:52] Maddy Stratten: Yes. Thanks Sarah. And all the best. Bye Giselle. Um, as co-founder of Bloom Ed and reflecting on the value of advocacy, can you share your experience of, um, the group's inception, uh, Bloom-Ed's Impact and it, and their growth?

[00:35:09] Giselle Woodley: Yeah, sure. So, um, Bloom-ed started at the beginning of COVID. What a lovely time.

[00:35:14] Maddy Stratten: Mm-hmm.

[00:35:14] Giselle Woodley: Um, and I've been thinking that wanted to do more social advocacy. And then Dr. Jackie Hendricks, who, um, is the course coordinator for sexology, put out a call out for something very similar. I thought, oh my God, I've been trying to build something like this.

[00:35:26] So I reached out to her and her, myself, Jackie, and a couple of other members. Um, formed bloomed was very loose and we just knew we wanted to advocate for better relationships and sexuality education. Um, we've grown over the years. We've got a great, great team at the moment. We've got quite a a diverse group and a lot of focus on, um, sexual health and disability, which is really lovely that we're starting to branch out. Um, brought Sarah on board. Sarah and I actually met, I think her supervisor recommended that she meet with me because she was in Perth, but studying, um, at RMIT in Melbourne.

[00:35:59] And I'd written a conversation article and her supervisor said, reach out to, this person, we ended up having like a little walk around a lake and the rest is history. Now we, I love, love that we, we include each other on lots of projects. She came and worked with us at, when I was working at Curtin on some sexual violence projects and then bloomed, and then now we still write papers and, and she's awesome.

[00:36:19] Um, but yeah, bloomed was focused on basically, um, particularly policy in terms of where we can make a difference and where our skill base sits. So creating campaigns for things like better teacher training. Um, at the moment we're doing one about the industry codes and age verification and social media, and we are hoping to go to different mps and we've written some letters for more conservative mps and more, um, progressive mps because they have different priorities, but they definitely, um, there's still parts of these codes and regulations that will.

[00:36:49] That will concern them both. So that's our next sort of, next on our plate as well as a big teacher training campaign. But yeah. Cool.

[00:36:57] Winnie Adamson: Um, so it's cool to hear about Bloom Ed. Um, Maddy and I actually met you last year, you and Sarah at World Association of Sexual Health Congress. Yeah.

[00:37:05] Giselle Woodley: I remember

[00:37:07] Winnie Adamson: our brainstorming session with Bloom Ed on collaborative advocacy for better sex education.

[00:37:13] Mm. And it was really great to connect with so many like-minded people and work together to unpack and think critically., Not just practically, . About, yeah, these big topics on what we can actually be doing to drive change in the space. Um, I know we did a lot of brainstorming on big butcher's pieces of paper and broke up into great groups and have really informative chats.

[00:37:34] So where has this session taken you? Where is bloomed going? What's coming next?

[00:37:40] Giselle Woodley: Hmm. Thank you so much. That session was so cool because it was on really early in the morning. We didn't expect anyone to come, especially out at the end of a conference and you're all shell of a human.

[00:37:51] Maddy Stratten: We were gonna be there.

[00:37:52] We made sure that we got our coffee early that day and got down there.

[00:37:58] Giselle Woodley: Thanks so much. It was so lovely to see. We were, we were just absolutely stoked that people got up early because if it was me, I probably wouldn't, but I had to. But yeah, we did a lot of brainstorming and, and on butcher's paper. And actually you're really reminding me that, um, we should let other people know how they can get involved.

[00:38:13] So something we have started doing, I mean, a lot of our communications are over WhatsApp, um, where we sort of, um. We'd like to share opportunities because really you can only go for policy submissions if you know about them. So it's usually someone gets wind of something. We're trying to have representation in all states and territories in Australia, which we don't quite have yet.

[00:38:31] We don't really have anyone in South Australia, Northern Territory, or Tasmania, which is a gap we would love to fill. Mm-hmm. Um, but we've also built a community garden so that people who don't wanna necessarily be on the committee and do, do the boring work. They can still sort of share opportunities or, um, let us know that a policy thing is happening or we can reach out to the community.

[00:38:49] So please do feel free to jump on the Bloom ed site, and ask to join the community if you'd like to. Um, but we, yeah, we have a, few campaigns. We're about to start on. We've, we've had a teacher training campaign. We've had on the back burner for a little bit, and also the industry code, um, regulation campaign.

[00:39:05] But they actually really tie into each other because, especially when you're rallying mps, you need to give them specific points of what, what you want done. You can't just have a wishy-washy meeting and hope for the best. I think having really specific recommendations or actions that they can take, and one of the actions is teacher training because there's, you know, we had consent education come in, mandatory consent education, which is a very progressive welcome addition to the curriculum. But um, there was no extra support for educators. And, and that's possibly why I relayed that teenagers are conceptualizing just this, just as permission. It's probably 'cause there's no training.

[00:39:37] Um, so a core part of that campaign, and which ties into both of them, is that there really needs to be more support and funding and training for teachers. So that's, that's really what we're gonna be focusing in the coming months.

[00:39:48] Maddy Stratten: Yeah. Great. And I heard also that, um, that you've got a new master's student.

[00:39:53] Is that right?

[00:39:54] Giselle Woodley: Yeah, we have Lydia Jupp working great. And Lydia is an amazing writer, writes for the star observer and used to work for End Rape On Campus as well. And there are fabulous writer. So, um, watch this space for, much more finessed position statements and, and some nice writing.

[00:40:09] We're really looking forward to Lydia working with us as well.

[00:40:12] Maddy Stratten: Yeah. Great. And also, um, just really cool to see how people who are listening today can get involved in advocacy. I think a lot of people think about advocacy and think, yes, that's something I wanna do, but how do I do it and who do I talk to and, and what, what does it practically actually look like in real life. Yeah. So really cool to have Blue Ed to jump on board with.

[00:40:34] Giselle Woodley: Yeah, that's a great question. I think about this a lot because I, I mean, I definitely never thought I'd end up in research or do a PhD no bloody way. Um, but I've realized now that I'm in it, it's a fantastic advocacy tool.

[00:40:46] And I think with advocacy more broadly, it's sort of play on your strengths if you are good at, mm-hmm. Doing art or, um, you're a good talk or you, you're good in social media or, or research. Play to your strengths and advocate in your communities and the spaces that you have access to in the ways that you can.

[00:41:02] Mm-hmm. So, um, I also do advocacy for the multiple genocides going on. And we ran a fundraiser last year for Gaza, but we used art as our medium so that we could get artists involved and people were doing face painting and fake psychic readings for donations and just silly things that we're trying to get the community involved.

[00:41:19] And we, we ended up raising $25,000 that we were able to distribute through families and things. But it doesn't also have to be, money's also doesn't solve all the problems. And I think I've learned that the hard way in trying to get money into Gaza has been really tricky. Um, and even with sex ed here, money isn't, doesn't solve the issue.

[00:41:34] So, yeah, I think playing to your strengths, um, knowing that you have a voice and using that voice, even if it's just to your friends and family. Um, to advocate for what you need. And because those have follow on effects as well. Whatever conversation you have, whatever impact you have, however small, that has a follow on effect.

[00:41:49] And I think that's part of advocacy too, is knowing you don't have to like move mountains or write these really long policy submissions. Mm-hmm. But there's other ways to be an activist and, and advocate for more social justice at multilevel of the community as well.

[00:42:02] Maddy Stratten: Yeah. I really, um, I guess resonate with that even in talking about.

[00:42:08] Sex and relationships and consent and sexual violence prevention and just being really open in talking about that. I know 10 years ago before I started working, in this space, I, I maybe wouldn't have started talking about it. Then I became more comfortable. I had the language. I, uh, built my own capacity, and then now all of a sudden it's a very common conversation that.

[00:42:29] Um, we're having, you know, at our share house or at the, kitchen table at my parents' place, and we're talking about these conversations and I feel as though that is also part of advocating for these, really important topics is talking about it, um, even at that really small level. So yeah, really how you speak about that.

[00:42:50] Giselle Woodley: Yeah. And I think what you're saying is, is more important than, than you probably give credit for it as well. Yeah. Because I do think the stigmatization of sex is part of the issue.

[00:42:58] Maddy Stratten: Mm-hmm.

[00:42:58] Giselle Woodley: Of sexual violence. You know, it's surrounded in mystery and it's this mysterious thing and it's this taboo that you can't talk about.

[00:43:04] And that's something we can all do. We can help de-stigmatize sex 'cause that's part of the issue. Mm-hmm. And that. You know, doing this, all the way round will help de-stigmatize and help reduce that taboo. So it's not so, wrapped around in this, this taboo that, that then becomes, eroticized in a harmful way.

[00:43:21] Yeah,

[00:43:21] Maddy Stratten: yeah, yeah, of course. And it's really cool just to, to hear, um, I guess the really inspiring vision that bloomed has and the direction that, you're going and, um, I guess really. In the time that we are in, uh, really feel the value of this work. So, thanks for sharing that before we, thanks so

[00:43:38] Giselle Woodley: much.

[00:43:39] Maddy Stratten: Before we finish up, um, we'd love to leave some space for you, Giselle, to share any final thoughts that you have for our listeners, especially in how people can continue to engage in this conversation and advocate for RSE, uh, we'll of course have all of the links discussed in today's episode and that, Sarah and Giselle have, shared with us beforehand.

[00:43:59] We'll have them all in the show notes. Um, but we'd like to just hand over to you now, Giselle, to leave us with your final thoughts.

[00:44:06] Giselle Woodley: Well, I, I think building on what you said, having those conversations is so important, de-stigmatizing. But I think also in addition to that is being curious. Mm-hmm. It's something I've learned to be as a researcher.

[00:44:16] Um, I've, I've gone through my own journey of, I, I kind of came in with really negative, um. Thoughts about pornography and I, and I realized I wasn't really open to what the research was saying. And I think being continuously curious is so, so important and being open-minded because nothing is black and white.

[00:44:34] Um, there's so much nuance in, in all our different areas. And understanding those complexities as individuals, not just as researchers or educators or, um, content creators, I think is so important. And being curious is, is part of that. It's being curious and being open. Um, and if you are, you might learn something.

[00:44:52] And that helps to be a good advocate as well, because you can then see that nuance and it helps discussion and fosters, interesting, debate.

Winnie Adamson: Thanks for listening to On the Couch. We create this podcast because we are allies in actively challenging discrimination, microaggressions and exclusionary behaviors.

Maddy Stratten: We wanna create spaces where people feel safe to share their thoughts, knowing that they'll be heard and respected. Such an environment fosters collaboration, innovation, and contributes to a more inclusive society.

Winnie Adamson: Follow us on your favorite podcast platform. That way you will receive every new episode when it's released. You can also help us grow the podcast by giving us a rating and leaving us a review.

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Winnie Adamson: On the couch is made by the team at Caddy Shack Project.

Until next time, peace, love, and protection.