On The Couch with Roxee Horror, Cherry-Ripe & Lawrence of Australia Transcript

Jen Farinella: [00:00:00] Hello, and welcome to an episode of On The Couch, where we collaborate with experts, practitioners, authors, advocates, and influencers to explore current social themes, sex positive topics, and share stories and insights that matter. This podcast was recorded on Aboriginal country. We Acknowledge the traditional custodians of the lands that were never seeded on which we live, work, and record upon.

We pay our respects to elders past and present, and to those who may be visiting our website or listening to our podcasts. Today while listening, we encourage you to practice good self-care. Check the show notes for content, details, and references. Wherever you are, whatever you're doing, enjoy this episode of On The Couch.

Maddy Stratten: Welcome my name is Maddy Stratten and I'm here with my co-host, colleague and friend, Winnie Adamson.

Winnie Adamson: Hello and welcome today we are not on the couch. We are actually in a recording studio at the University of Wollongong [00:01:00] on Dharawal Country, and we are joined in person with three fabulous guests.

Maddy Stratten: That's right, Winnie. We are in this new way of recording on the couch episode, and we are honored to be joined by three local drag stars, Roxee Horror, Cherry Ripe, and Lawrence of Australia.

Roxee Horror: Hello. Hey,

Cherry Ripe: thank you for having

Roxee Horror: us. Yes, thank you so much.

Maddy Stratten: Such an all star cast, right? Stop.

Winnie Adamson: Right. Um, so all three of you have such unique and individual experiences in the local drag scene and we're really keen to get into talking about this today.

Also get to know you a little bit and chat about consent in performing how drag culture intersects with trans allyship and sexual identities. But our listeners can read your whole bio in our show notes, but we wanted to just give a little introduction to you three.

Cherry ripe is where punk rock meets red carpet glamor. Cherry has gained lots of experience since her debut drag performance at the ripe age of 14 and has performed all over the east [00:02:00] coast of Australia. Cherry has also produced her own events, assisted in producing larger community events.

Lawrence of Australia is a real southern bow South coast that is, he has worked prolifically for six years in the drag scene. Has a passion for politics, and history, and spends most nights curled up to a nice journal article. Women love him, fish, fear him. He's Lawrence of Australia.

And we have Roxee Horror. Roxee has been making waves in Wollongong since 2016. You have read about her in the papers and you have seen her drag story time. You have probably watched her slay in one of her many amazing stage productions.

Maddy Stratten: So when we all met last year, we spoke about how we wanted this episode to run. So we spoke about this being a really safe space to explore, um, and that even though we are really privileged to have three diverse drag stars on the couch, that your experiences [00:03:00] and, um, I guess perspectives don't represent the whole drag community and everyone within it.

Cherry Ripe: Absolutely. Yeah.

Maddy Stratten: So as this is our first episode recording in person with Winnie and I as co-hosts , it's also our first episode with three guests. Um, we wanna start as always by using the, uh, concept of fields of existence or coordinates of belonging to help share and connect with stories.

We find that it's a really meaningful way to set the scene for today's chats. These concepts were introduced to us by Leah from Co-Culture Communications, and they demonstrate that our being our beings are a field of activity made up of stories that we've been told, our ancestors that have existed, the land under our feet, and the places where we stand.

And all of these forces, I guess, form who we are in this moment as contextual beings. It's a bit of a, a new concept for us, um, to be introducing our guests On The Couch, but I'd like to get started with your story, [00:04:00] Roxee. How do you define and locate yourself and what are your coordinates of belonging?

Roxee Horror: So I will say I really had to kind of wrap my head around this concept. I think it's such a beautiful concept and, um, I really just wanted to do it justice. And I, I hope I did now hope that I do. Sure. Um, but I've just kind of realized lately that I exist, um, currently on Dharawal land in, um, beautiful Wollongong.

Mm-hmm. Uh, I. Belong because of all of the amazing queer events that we have down here. Um, I feel like, if I'm honest, before I moved here and started doing what I do, I didn't feel like I actually fit in anywhere. And then when I found my people, it was through all of everything in Wollongong. Mm-hmm.

Through drag, through all of the creative queer spaces that we have down here now. Um, but you know, I came from a rough area, so I grew up in Western Sydney and it was not okay to be gay. My family were okay with it. I've always had support in that respect, but my surroundings were not okay [00:05:00] with, with queerness.

Um, and to be honest, when I first moved to Wollongong, neither was was Wollongong. Mm-hmm. Um, and you know, there are still elements that aren't, but overall I feel like, um, I have a wonderful sense of belonging thanks to our region.

Maddy Stratten: Mm. Yeah. Beautiful. Cherry would you like to go next?

Cherry Ripe: Of course, yeah. So I was having a good think about this one and trying to think of like what would be a really good way to kind of like express who I am as a person and I am a trans woman and I think a big part of my identity is like being raised for a lot of my life as like a, a cis boy and having that experience of like growing up and playing NRL and like being socialized in that way and having all of those kind of like roles put on me.

And I think that's like a really helped, like, shape me in a lot of ways and then navigating through that and like [00:06:00] finding my true identity and then moving out of these spaces that I knew weren't I. For me, and like it weren't comfortable for me and trying to like, find spaces that were comfortable and supportive and yeah, the queer scene down here has just been so huge and special for me.

Mm-hmm. I, um, yeah, really, really cool. I like moved out of home when I was 14 and was sleeping kind of rough and there was just so much support around in the community for me at the time. Very special and very grateful that I can be a part of this place.

Maddy Stratten: Beautiful. Thank you so much for sharing. Lawrence, would you like to share your coordinates of belonging?

Lawrence of Australia: Yes. Um, well, much like Roxee, actually, I did grow up in Sydney, um, but I also find Wollongong to be like such an important place for me. The regional town aspect really means that I feel like as a community we're, we're so close to each other in a way that you just don't get in Sydney. And so I'm just really thankful [00:07:00] to like.

Yeah, like Dhawaral sort of yuin country for like providing that sense of belonging. I also like, um, I'm like a dyke, so I, I really love kind of women and, you know, women's spaces that really like. Operate for not just like entertainment, but for liberation. Um, and I also, I mean, I'm a cross dresser. Like that's, at the end of the day, it's like, um, these, when I hear about things like drag bands, they're things that affect me as a drag king, but they also affect me as a butch lesbian.

Um, you know, I walk out in men's clothes every day and that affects me. And so I find a lot of. Peace and a lot of belonging in, in cross-dressing, especially as a term that is quite loaded. Like it's, you know, I like to identify as a cross-dresser because when, a lot of the time when people think cross-dresser, especially conservatives think cross-dresser, they think like man in a dress, they think degenerate, they think, um, pedophilic, they think deceptive.

[00:08:00] Um, but I'm a woman, so when I'm cross-dressing, I'm expected to be nurturing towards children. I'm expected to be sexually available. So it's like a, a nice way for me to take that term and like ask people what they're loading into it because, you know, what does that mean for a woman who's a cross-dresser?

Cherry Ripe: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Wow. Yeah. I be able to add something. Yeah. Go. With what you said about being in a small town as well. I'm like sixth generation from Helensburgh. Like I'm the sixth generation of my family to grow up in that small town in Northern Illawarra. And I think that's had a huge impact on me as well.

Like living in this small town that's, my family's been in for so long, we've got so much like history that's very small. Very small. Like they've got everything they need in the town so no one really leaves the town. And it's like sometimes a bit of a scary kind of feeling and sense you get, 'cause there's like no representation and no safety.

Like I remember walking around in just a tight tie shirt and people were [00:09:00] like staring at me and I was like, I'm not even like, I'm not even wearing, like I'm not even fruity. This is something chill. Yeah. Very like, yeah. Interesting vibe growing up in this small little rural area.

Maddy Stratten: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Thank you so much for, um, jumping in there and, and sharing that.

And it's always such a pleasure to share and hear these stories and connect with our fields of existence. And so I'm so glad that we can spend a little bit of time here and not rush it, and really set the scene before we lead into talking about, really the impact of the local drag culture. Um, before we get there, we might start with some basics.

Drag is a performance art, a type of entertainment where people dress up to perform, to create a heightened version of masculinity, femininity, and other forms of gender expression. Drag performers, whether drag queens, drag kings, or drag stars are artists think big hair, makeup, costumes, [00:10:00] other tools to present an exaggerated form of gender expression. I read a really great line in a blog post once that said that drag critiques gender inequalities and imagines a transformational future where people are truly free in how they express themselves.

And I really love that actually. Um, it's a real celebration of non-conformity, uh, rooted in acceptance and resilience. It's an art form that represents freedom of expression and resistance to unjust forces. And for that, I would also add that the goal of drag is not just entertainment and I'm interested in your thoughts, but I think also it's to educate, right?

Um, we didn't want this episode to be a drag 1 0 1, a history of drag, although, uh, super interesting and important. So I don't want to brush over that. Um, I will encourage our listeners to go back and learn more about drag through the ages back as far as ancient Greece and Rome. Hmm, [00:11:00] because it is a really interesting history.

So we know that drag performers can experience discrimination and harassment because of their gender expression. So by talking about it today and debunking some of these myths in today's episode, we can start to create that societal shift as we encourage people to move through the world with love and respect.

It's very simple. One of those myths, um, that I, I know, you know, just from around and, and on Google, is that drag is only drag queens and that drag queens are always men performing as feminine women. I really wanna debug that myth for all of that listeners today. Uh, we know, that we'll be moving into talking a little bit more about that and the intersection between drag and transgender communities.

But I wanna hand over to you first, Lawrence as our drag king On The Couch. Uh, we know that you have completed your thesis on drag history, which is very cool. Um, you might have some good [00:12:00] articles and resources to share Yes. Um, in the show notes for our listeners. So that might be a good place to start if you are interested, um, to go back into the history of drag.

Um, but Lawrence, can you speak to your experience as a drag king navigating a space where drag queens are often seen as the only form of drag performance? How do you challenge this? How do you question gender stereotypes and fight for your craft in spaces where men dominate?

Lawrence of Australia: That's really interesting.

Um, I find that you're very right, obviously in your depiction of drag, it is, you know, this art form that, you know, is meant to educate and such. But like any art form, you know, think sculpture, painting, performance art, um, it is also an industry. So you're looking at, um, you know, just because we're cross-dressing and because that, um, has like leftist counter-cultural connotations doesn't mean that it's immune to the same social forces that [00:13:00] affect, like the art world.

For example, like if we think of famous artworks, it takes a long time to name a female artist in the same way. It takes a long time, sort of for people, people to think of someone, a drag queen, uh, who's not, you know, a, a white guy or not, you know, um, a drag queen at all, like a drag artist. Um, and so I find that it's definitely really difficult to navigate.

I think that most drag artists are on Instagram and so social media is definitely a lot of the field where I try and fight back against that. I remember, and this is absolutely no shade to um, my sisters here in Wollongong, but I do remember, uh, there was an incident where um, a regular club night sort of was doing a lot of like promotion and they were like, where Wollongong's most inclusive clubbing event, we have Queens every fortnight.

And I had only just started really doing King Drag, but I was like, come on guys. Like, you know, you know, Queens were getting imported from Sydney. You know, like Ru Paul's drag race queens were getting imported. And I knew off [00:14:00] the top of my head, 5, 6, 7 amazing kings who had been doing drag for years, years and years.

And I myself had been doing drag for three or four years at that point. And I was like, this is kind of why it's hard to get gigs. 'cause it wasn't malicious at all, but it was forgetful. You know what I mean? Like, we're so on the margins and you know, you're also right that, you know, we're all not representing necessarily like all drag from our perspective. But it feels like every time I'm like a token king, so I have to speak for the king community every time. And so like for a long time I would have have terrible stage fright before going on stage because I felt like if I didn't do good enough, then all kings are gonna be painted by the same brush.

And the entire industry feels like it's almost rooting for you to fail a little bit sometimes, because you know, if you're, and you know, it's not like we don't want women in this industry. Like, no one's gonna say that because like I said, it does have that reputation of being countercultural and, and being kind of leftist, but it's couched in very [00:15:00] like socially acceptable language.

Like, oh, well it's just not as revolutionary for an afab queen, which is, you know, for example, a queen who's a cis woman. For the listeners, um. It's just not as revolutionary for her to do drag as it is for a cis man to do drag. Or if a queen is transgender, then it's like, well, she's cheating by doing hormones and getting surgery.

Or if, you know, it's like, oh, drag kings just aren't as entertaining as drag queens because masculinity just isn't as fun. And so it's like in many ways you're just keeping women outta the industry. We haven't gotten past hiring a woman in a man's, you know, industry, but it is couched in ways that it's hard to sort of fight that.

And I know so many, you know, kings who had told, you know, like all kings just look the same, or, you know, like. They're getting paid like a third of the rate of their queen counterparts despite having larger followings online. Or I know one guy in the UK got paid 57,000 pounds less than his drag queen co-star.

And it's like, it's a pay gap. It's a pay gap. Mm-hmm. You know, [00:16:00] in the same way that like me and the hospitality industry as a line cook, you know what I mean? It's the same kind of issues. And so there's that. There was also, I remember actually one time, uh, your wonderful show, drag Race down South, just plugging that fabulous show.

Um, but all the drag kings in Wollongong in a big group chat. And there was one episode where we were like, wow, like, it's hard not to be paranoid. Like was this a slight or was it just like the way it is if like, you know, all drag kings are kind of, you know, maligned maybe. And so, um, because you and Ella were such huge powerhouses in the industry, there were a bunch of kings who were much newer and they.

I was the one who was like, okay, I'll go and message Roxee and be like, Hey, like what was the thing? Like, dah. Because they would be risking their careers, which it's already a difficult industry, um, you know, with like heavy producers. Yeah.

Roxee Horror: I totally see your mindset in that. But I if [00:17:00] they, if they just came to talk to me, I'm not that bitch.

I understand. I'm not that bitch. I never have been. I never would be. Yeah. Whether I'm speaking to anybody of any walk of life, I'm very personable, very approachable. And you were, and

Lawrence of Australia: you were to me, of course, a hundred percent. A hundred percent. But it's a fear. It's a fear of speaking out. Yeah, totally.

Roxee Horror: And and that's what I'm saying, you, the fear is validated, I think to be, if I'm a hundred percent honest, I think I'm kind of the exception, uh, with a lot of these situations. Um, as to why I think people would think I'm not approachable because, and a drag you put on a, a persona, you put on this character.

Um, and at the end of the day, I am a, I'm a nice bitch, but I'm a bitch, quote unquote bitch in drag. That's a, that's a persona that Roxee kind of does. Um, but. I'm actually a really nice person at my go and, and, and, and once people get to actually know the person behind the persona, um, I think it, it's, it's a big difference in relationships, but I totally get, yeah.

Why, um, oh, you are

Lawrence of Australia: very beloved in the Drag King [00:18:00] group. That, don't get me wrong, thank God covered mean, I'm not

Roxee Horror: the green shape promise, but

Lawrence of Australia: Yeah, like it was, it was, and it was something that happened, right? It's like, and it's the same as like Drag Expo for example, happened in Sydney and I went on their like story and I was like, I'll stop going through their story when I find a king.

And I got through their entire story. There was like 40 posts on their like Instagram story and I got to the end and I was like, okay. So they're just like drag expo, like for drag and there's no kings at all. Um, it was so wild to me. So that's kind of, yeah, I like to kind of. Be quite vocal there. Um, that's kind of how I fight it.

And also as a producer, I like to do integrated shows. I think doing all king shows, I've seen it happen. But even in Sydney, you can go bankrupt just doing stuff like that. Like there's not enough of an audience for it. Um, like, you know, there's plenty of, you know, kings will show up at all queen shows, but there's not always that reciprocation.

And so I always do integrated shows, first of all, because I think that there are lots of extremely talented queens and I don't wanna be [00:19:00] boring. Mm-hmm. Um, Cherry, I booked you for my first show. Our dates haven't lined up yet every time, but I have been in Roxee's DM trying to get her to, um, it's insane for me, but, um, yeah, like I think it's more interesting and I also love Yeah.

Like actually merging our industries and trying not to be like, almost like drag king separatist, because I think that we're so much more powerful when we're together. Yeah.

Roxee Horror: And I completely agree with that. And I will say though, that like the world has been taught that when you hear the word drag automatically, your mind goes through drag queen.

Mm-hmm. Um, mm.

Unfortunately that and, and, uh, and I was even a part of that when I started drag. I didn't really, I knew of drag kings. Mm-hmm. I didn't realize the plethora of drag performance performers, that it wasn't just as black as white as I was taught growing up. You know what I mean? Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Yeah. I didn't, you know, sorry, go.

Lawrence of Australia: I didn't know about drag kings when I started drag. Thought I was cross-dressing and I knew about drag queens, but I didn't know about drag kings. Exactly what I mean, they were so far beyond the realm of my comprehension.

Roxee Horror: Yeah. [00:20:00] Very interesting.

Winnie Adamson: Oh, thank you so much for sharing.

I, I could just listen to you talk. It was so long. It's really interesting you, the intricates of like, I guess the politics Yeah. Behind it, because, you know, they're. There are problems we face in every area of society. Mm, I think absolute. Um, but I do think this actually leads really nicely into drag, offering a space for gender presentations outside that strict binary.

Mm. And also, regardless of how a performer identifies off stage, um, we've heard and have seen the drag community being that safe and affirming space to explore gender identity and expression. And for some maybe an integral part of that coming out journey. It is a common Google question. Are drag, queens trans, a drag queen's gay.

And we'll get into talking about that. When we talk about the queer community in a moment, but we wanted to specifically give some time and space to the trans community. And we would like to hand over to you, Cherry, can you [00:21:00] share some of your thoughts and your experiences that you feel comfortable sharing.

How does the drag community offer safe spaces for the exploration of gender identity and expression?

Cherry Ripe: Absolutely. I'm like really excited for this question. I've been thinking about it a lot and like, I do wanna start by saying, like we mentioned earlier, I obviously can't talk on the behalf of like the entire trans community.

Mm-hmm. Everyone has such like unique experiences and journeys that they go through. But for me personally, like the drag community has been so huge in helping me find myself. Like, I remember when I was just like a little kid dressing up in my mum and my auntie's clothes and like putting on lipstick, putting fruit in a bra and like, being silly and loving every minute of it. And like that was my first introduction to drag. But I really start, started experimenting with drag and using it as a tool for my self-expression and like journey and finding myself when I was around 14. And it was so powerful finding like such a safe [00:22:00] community that nurtured me so nicely and well, like you can walk into an event, into a space, introduce yourself with any name, any pronouns, and it just be accepted.

Mm-hmm. And just like complete without any kind of judgment or preconceived idea of who you are as a person. You can really kind of like recreate yourself and be who you want to be, not who you are perceived as in other kind of circles. And I think that's something that's really powerful. Um,

Roxee Horror: That was a really good point, what you just said.

That was like, really, I knew you kind of made the penny drop for me then like, you know, um. We really do get to create who we want to be. Yeah. Fully. And I, I just, I, the penny dropped for me just then. Yeah.

Cherry Ripe: Thank you. And I think it's like super powerful to like go into a space and a group of people who don't know anything about you, but you have that connection and that community.

Like there are people who can relate to you and have similar experiences and struggles. And I think it's powerful to be able to [00:23:00] create the person you want to be without having these preconceived ideas that other people put onto you.

Mm-hmm.

Cherry Ripe: Mm-hmm. Um, drag's also been a really beautiful tool for me to explore my identity.

'cause it was such, it was like a safe space for me to try new things and explore new things without the judgment of it being real. Or like I could put it on as a mask when it was safe to explore it and take it off when it wasn't as safe to be expressing myself like that.

And the drag community and queer community as a whole, I think, has been such a warm, welcoming space. I've moved through so many names and pronouns myself, so many questionable hairstyles and fugly outfits, and everyone's just accepted it and accepted me with every change in every step closer to finding who I am.

Mm.

Roxee Horror: I remember Maude,

Cherry Ripe: oh God. Maude. Remember little baby Maude Maude. No, don't bring her up. Yeah. For a hot minute. My name was Maude Ified. Oh, she was a [00:24:00] little spooky baby. Oh, so Violet crumble, which is kind of slay Yeah, violet crumble is a slay Um, but I do also wanna say like some of my trans sisters have never been involved in the drag community at all.

So like obviously not every trans woman is a drag queen, and not every drag queen is trans. But I do think those events can be really powerful for people who want it. Experience them and find that community in that way. Yeah.

Maddy Stratten: Do you wanna talk a little bit about, um, the event spaces that you are creating, like you were talking about bringing together community, and I know, um, in the music scene and the, and the dj, um, stuff that you do. Do you wanna talk a little bit about that?

Cherry Ripe: Absolutely. So, like, something I've always been really passionate about is community and finding community and bringing community together.

I started, I produced my first show when I was 15 because I had no other shows that I could go to. There was no other spaces that I was really allowed in as being at such a [00:25:00] young age. So I created my own spaces and Roxee performed. I had like a huge lineup of really cool performers and it was really special.

And then from there, I. Started bringing more different diverse communities together. When I was 16, I got super into the local music scene in Wollongong and I was really surprised that in the Wollongong punk scene that everyone was so nice to a little gender freak like me. Like it was so heartwarming.

And I thought, well, I like this music, I like these drag performers. I'm gonna smash 'em together. And I put on this show called Cherry Tuesdays and it was in a little art studio. It was really cool. Mm-hmm. Um, and it was a space for people who were under 18 to come and experience culture of like both Wollongong's music scene that's so rich and the beautiful drag scene.

I think that was really powerful. And then moving forward, I've really gotten into like DJing.

Mm-hmm.

Cherry Ripe: Um, it's been so much fun. I was like going through a pretty rough time at the end of 2023 and I picked up my DJ decks and like [00:26:00] really, really helped me. Mm-hmm. I would recommend DJing to anyone. It's so much fun.

Um. Yeah. And I think that's been a new way that I've been able to try and bring community together. I recently had a big fundraiser to go towards my gender affirming care surgeries, and I put on a big drag Doof with DJs and drag performers, and it was really beautiful seeing that like sense of community coming together and being able to express yourself freely in a safe space outside the boundaries that normal society kind of puts on us.

Maddy Stratten: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. I just think that's really important when we're talking about community and, and kind of moving into, I guess, yapping a little bit more around sexuality. Um, yeah. Within drag culture, so the term drag is often associated with gay and queer culture. Um, but I'd like to open this up a little bit more to thinking outside of the assumptions that drag is only for the LGBTQIA plus community.

Mm. We have seen this shift and [00:27:00] rise of drag in a more, um, I guess, mainstream popular culture. So I'm thinking back, uh, historically with its, underground lgbtqia plus roots and, and now to this visibility and this wider cultural landscape through shows like RuPaul's Drag Race, uh bestselling books from well-known names like Courtney Act, and I'm sure our listeners have heard of, local drag, , lip sync battles, drag shows, drag bingo, drag brunches, um, drag story times popping up in libraries across the country.

Um, I'm gonna move over to you, Roxee. Um, can you share some of your thoughts around this progression that you've seen, um, and the acceptance and celebration of drag, um, in a wider. Audience and this increasing social acceptance. And I wanna give a little bit of space here to share how that hasn't always been the case and how unfortunately, um, we still see drag fetishized attacked and stigmatized.

So I wanna hand over to you and just, um, talking about [00:28:00] a little bit more about that. Yeah.

Roxee Horror: So, RuPaul's Drag Race. Mm-hmm. RuPaul's Drag Race is the number one factor as to why drag is where it is today. Um, growing up I was exposed to drag. I watched, um, Rocky Horror Picture Show.

I watched, uh, Priscilla, To Wong Fu, Mrs. Doubtfire. I grew up with these as my favorite movies. I was always into movies where people gender swapped like the hot chick and, and dating the enemy. Always intrigued by that, but I had to actively source that out as a youngin. I had to, I, I saw it on SBS late one night I saw Dating the Enemy and it was an Aussie movie with Claudia Carvin and Guy Pearce and they, and they do a gender swap. And, I'd never seen anything like that before. I'd never been exposed to that. Nowadays though, you just walk down the street and there are drag performers on posters in Wollongong in Sydney, everywhere.

So, and automatically, um, I think that that puts us in people's minds straight away. So that's a positive thing. Mm-hmm. Um, [00:29:00] in saying that too, though, I think that drag race has kind of, I'm probably gonna get shot for saying this ruined drag in so many ways. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Um. I love drag. I love drag because of Priscilla.

I love drag. That's a little bit busted. That's a little bit rough, a little bit Spooky. Drag Race is all about being this perfectly polished product of RuPaul. Um, and if you don't fit into that, then you are, you're not a good drag queen. Mm-hmm. Um, and uh, I feel like it's different with people like the mainstream media in comparison to the queer media because queer people live this stuff daily.

We get to see, um, drag and, uh, queer spaces thrive, whereas it's in our own little bubble. So like everyone, like I've been to events with, with both of you many times and there's never an issue. We are thriving, we are living. But I could be at that [00:30:00] same event and walk downstairs, um, at a club and be ostracized for looking the way that I look.

So I, I, I do think, although yes, it has come so far thanks to RuPaul's Drag Race, we are still lucky to live in the bubble we live in. As soon as that bubble pops all hell can break loose. And I, I often forget that sometimes because I've been so embraced by drag in Wollongong over the past nine years. Um, but it's because I'm going to events where I'm wanted, I'm going to events where people are expecting to see drag there.

So yes, drag has gotten, uh, progressively in the eyes of people so much more in the world. Um, but is it getting better? Honestly? No, it's probably not. It's, it's, it's getting better in your safe spaces. Real. I will not walk down the street in full drag on my own. In Wollongong and say that I feel a hundred percent safe.

Absolutely. You [00:31:00] know, so, yes. Uh, I guess the, the main thing that I take away from this is we are getting a lot more exposure, but that's not necessarily making it safer for us, if that makes sense.

Lawrence of Australia: So fascinating. Like, I mean, I, well I did do a thesis, but it was about drag king specifically, and I've found that throughout the 20th century, gender non conformity is actually very common.

You see White Chicks, you see jokes about people being transgender in all sorts of like two thousands, you know, comedies, but it's the butt of the jokes. So we have been in the public eye for a long time. There is a great fascination in our culture with gender non conformity, but there is a line, there's a line where if you are too gender non conforming, particularly if it's in your pedestrian life, you know me as a butch' lesbian, you as a trans woman, you know, Roxee, you even as a gay man, it's like, it absolutely there is a line that gets crossed.

And you saw the same thing earlier, like in the 1950s, um, actually from the 1890s, well into [00:32:00] the sixties, there were male impersonators who would have been millionaires accounting for inflation, of course, based off of being male impersonators. But these were middle class women with husbands and children, and they could rely on having that.

And then the novelty of being like a woman dressed as a man. Um, whereas the butch lesbians and the trans-masculine people in the dyke clubs, um, who were doing sort of the same thing, kind of like male impersonation, but much more intense erotic. Um, embodied. They were being raided by the police. They were being, their, their names and their headshot were being put in the news the next day.

And so it's like, there's always a line where if you cross it, that's when you get victimized. But as, as I said, the culture has an extremely common and, you know, natural obsession with gender non conformity. Um, but usually you have to be making fun of women. You have to be making fun of trans people. You have to be, you know, cis and straight to get away with it.

And, [00:33:00] you know, and a lot of people make a lot of money off of making fun of people like us mm-hmm. While still doing what we have originated. Mm-hmm.

Roxee Horror: But it's, it's so interesting, um, because yes, we, people have made so much money over making fun of us, but that was also the only representation we had in media.

So, quite often I look back on these movies. That I watch now with a completely different viewpoint going like, oh my God. I felt seen from that. Like it's, it's really sad when you think about it.

Lawrence of Australia: It's such a low bar. Yeah, absolutely

Cherry Ripe: real. And with what you were saying earlier about drag's definitely come so far and become a lot more mainstream and accepted in certain spaces.

Roxee Horror: That's the thing yeah.

Cherry Ripe: In certain spaces, like I feel like there is a really widespread perception of the public right now that this is like the safest time to be trans, the safest time to be queer. Everyone's so accepting. You're not allowed to be transphobic. You're not allowed to disagree with [00:34:00] people's pronouns, but because there's been that huge uprise in acceptance, there's been the same, if not more uprise in that opposition to that.

And we've seen like huge, like a rise in fascism and the far right becoming a lot bigger and like more prevalent, powerful. And that's scary. Like

Roxee Horror: very scary. Mm-hmm.

Cherry Ripe: I've am now being booked for like rock shows and metal shows, and I'm the only drag performer with these like heavy hardcore bands, which is so cool to see.

But in those spaces, like you said, people aren't expecting to see a drag queen.

Mm-hmm.

Cherry Ripe: There's a drag queen there, but they're not expecting it. They don't know how to act around a drag queen. And I know we'll touch on consent and things a bit more, but like at events like that, that's where I get touched and that's where I don't feel always super safe in those environments and walking home from the gig. I live really close to a lot of the venues in Wollongong, so I just walk home. But you're so right. It's not like a fun, safe,

mm.

Walk home. It's like always looking [00:35:00] over your shoulder and making sure I'm putting on like the most concealing clothes I can.

And yeah, there, there is definitely a, a lot of great movement and positivity that's come from Drag Race and the exposure that that's brought us. But I think with that, there's also that opposition that's come in and people are pushing back against it and they don't want to see it.

Mm.

Roxee Horror: Even just going touch on quickly about what you're saying about like walking, um, like feeling like unsafe, even out of drag.

I, um, still kind of butcher it up if I'm on my own, especially at night in Wollongong, if a bunch of boys are walking towards me, drag or not, I, I try and somehow make myself look straighter or act straighter just so I don't fear. Uh, being hit or, or ostracized, yeah.

Cherry Ripe: Conflict. Yeah.

Roxee Horror: Um, so that's not only a drag thing, that's just very much a queer thing as well.

I think, like, I think it's heightened by drag. I, I'm much more susceptible to an attack in drag than out of drag. [00:36:00] However, I've only, there's only been one situation where I have been, I would say gay bashed. Yeah. Um, I wasn't in drag that had nothing to do with me being drag. It was just me being an overtly gay man.

Wow. So it's interesting, like the only hardship that I faced in Wollongong when it comes to that stuff wasn't even Roxee. It was me out of drag, which is so interesting, I find.

Maddy Stratten: Yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Mm. That's interesting. I think, um, I think it , um, talking about, I guess thinking about drag and , its diversity in reaching a wider audience that conversation we're having just before.

Um, but also thinking about drag stars that wouldn't otherwise be in the LGBTQI plus community. So we're talking about cishet men and women. So, uh, cishet, meaning cisgendered and heterosexual. Um, can you speak a little bit more about this? I know that there's lots of conversations about this, right?

Winnie Adamson: Mm-hmm. I mean, we can imagine, as we're saying, there's many different, um, perspectives around, um, [00:37:00] this in the community. As well.

Maddy Stratten: And so thinking about, you know, is it a positive thing because it's becoming more celebrated in an accepted art form, or is it discouraged because there's this view that cishet people are taking places of those who are LGBTQIA plus, um, community members.

So it's a really interesting, uh, I guess. I wanna say a debate or a conversation. Um, and there probably is no right or wrong answer to this. So I think maybe, um, if you could talk us through the difference between cishet men and women allies who are respectfully advocating for trans rights, for example, and taking this art form seriously and are accepted part in the drag culture, um, in comparison to say, uh, cishet men at parties wearing brows to be a joke as you were talking about before, Lawrence

So these are really big questions. Yeah, I know. Um, but I'll hand over to you all to kind of unpack this, maybe starting with you, Roxee.

Roxee Horror: [00:38:00] Yeah. Awesome. Um, this is a really, really tricky one. This one, um, is hard because I a, I see both sides of it. Mm-hmm. Um, but I've also had very in depth conversations with people on opposite end of the spectrum here, I've had people who do not want straight people in queer spaces at all. Hands down, foot down. They shouldn't be there because they, um, aren't queer people. Um, but then I'm also a firm believer of like, if it weren't for the allies, we wouldn't have a lot of the spaces that we have today.

Um, , it's, it's a struggle to kind of tether the line of like, are these people coming here a because they want to make fun of us. Mm-hmm. Are they coming here because it's a new experience for them or are they coming here because they're curious themselves?

So I think the word straight is so hard because I identify as gay, but I'm not the gayest person you'll ever meet. I have been with women. Um, [00:39:00] uh, I will probably continue to be with women for my life. I just identify as gay. Mm-hmm. Um. However, there are straight people that come to these events who do identify as straight and maybe dress up at home behind closed doors because they're too scared they haven't had an outlet. And these spaces are the outlet for them. Yeah. It's different if they're coming here like as you said, wearing a bra and a dirty wig being like, ah, gay. Very different. Very different. I don't want them people in my venues at all. No at all. But if I have someone who's genuinely there as an ally or genuinely there, 'cause they're questioning something within themselves, I don't wanna turn that away.

I don't wanna turn that away because there are dickhead who will ruin it for other people. Um, I wanna embrace that. I have seen so many people who I've met in the last, I'd say eight years, who are different people from who they are from when I met them today. And that is because. They have been embraced.

Cherry Ripe is a prime example. Absolutely exhibit a [00:40:00] Cherry, I have watched her grow and blossom into this beautiful young woman, and when I met her I like. Completely different. Completely different. Yeah. And you know, I don't think you would've ever identified as straight, but um, you coming to the spaces when you first did, you were young.

Yeah. Um, you were obviously within the queer realm, but you didn't know you were trans. Yeah. No way. You kind of found yourself through that. So if, if I denied Cherry from coming to my bingos back in the day, who's to say that Cherry wouldn't have found herself? Now I know that that's not at all, that's not what I'm saying.

It's just what I'm like, what I'm trying to say is that these events that straight, straight people come to could be the thing that changes their life. Mm-hmm. And the progression of their life really. And that's why I think it's important to allow it, but be mindful of it. If you do have people who aren't taking it seriously and are making a mocker of it, don't have them in the events.

Get them out straight away. [00:41:00] You don't want them there.

Cherry Ripe: Yeah,

Roxee Horror: absolutely. Yeah. It's kind of how I see it. Absolutely.

Cherry Ripe: And I think like it is a hard one because. I've also like had conversations with people where they're so firm on, like straight people don't belong in queer spaces. These are our spaces that we've created because we are not, we can't just go to any club in Wollongong.

We can't just go out every night, get drunk and be safe. Mm-hmm. We have these clubs because we need them. Yeah. Mm-hmm. And seeing like 50% of the population in the club being like straight, white, blonde girls who just wanna see a drag queen dance on stage is sometimes like, yes, you deserve to have fun and witness our community, but be respectful and don't take space from people in our community.

Mm-hmm. One thing that's really stands out for me is the Mardi Gras parade. I've been to the Mardi Gras parade maybe six years in a row, and. It's, it's just not good. Like [00:42:00] it's just not good. Yeah. There are elements of it that are so amazing and so beautiful and I went to my first parade when I was 14 and I was blown away at how many queer people there were in Sydney.

Mm.

Cherry Ripe: I like coming from this small town in Wollongong going up and seeing like this enormous street full of beautiful queer people expressing them how they want to. But then like the, as I got older and seeing like the masses of straight people who are coming and like having a laugh, having a look, maybe they are being supportive, but still it's like I've gone and I've been five rows from the back not being able to see the parade.

'cause there's all of these people here. When it's made for us, and we don't get to experience it because of them. So I think, I'm not saying they don't belong in our spaces at all. Full stop. I just think it's really important for cis and het people to be respectful and mindful in our spaces of how they're acting and how they're taking up space.

Lawrence of Australia: Oh, yeah. Yeah. Especially like, I mean, as a freshly [00:43:00] minted producer, you could say doing it for like a year or so, it's like we can't afford really to deny entrance to straight people no matter how much we want to, you know, in some cases. Um, but it's also like as drag reformers and even as, you know, queer people who, you know, as we say, like don't feel confident maybe walking out, being ourselves in the street.

Mm-hmm. When we, when we're in our own spaces, confidence is like our most prized possession. And so to be looked at like a zoo animal Yeah. It just, it really actually makes it taints those spaces. Yeah. So it is so important for like. You know, I'm not advocating obviously, that every straight person has to wear like a visitor's badge when they come into GayDay

But I'm saying that like you have to, you know, if you are bringing your friends, if you're bringing your coworkers, like come for a laugh, come to my friend's thing, then you are responsible that, you know, that's like, you know, your wild dog, you have to keep that bang on a leash. Yeah.

Roxee Horror: The thing is too, they living in like a regional town, um, we don't anymore have, a [00:44:00] queer venue full stop.

So if we have a problem with straight people coming to our events, every single one of us run events at straight venues. Yeah. Yeah. There is no way around that because the venues that we work at down here are straight. It's not like we don't have the luxury of having five gay clubs in one place up in Sydney where you can be safe and then, uh, straight people come into your space.

We are technically, infiltrating the straight spaces down here. And you know, sometimes we get embraced by the people that are coming to it, but sometimes we do not. And that's the hard thing about doing that and not having a hub for queer people.

Winnie Adamson: I think that moves very nicely into discussing consent, which you touched on a bit before Cherry.

Um, and I know that when we first met, this was something that came up and was a pretty big topic that we wanted to discuss, um, you all raised concerns and [00:45:00] particularly concerns over performers , but also audiences members to everyone's safety. Particular the common experience of people touching drag stars thinking that it is accepted and that consent somehow doesn't matter in this space when it really does.

And just because a drag performer dresses or acts a certain way doesn't mean that they wanna be touched. And practicing consent in this performance space is just as important as any other space. It's about mutual respect and open communication, and ensuring safety of drag stars and the audience.

Mm-hmm. For our listeners, we do have episodes on the couch focusing ons consent, such as our episode with Dr. Joy Townsend, CEO, and founder of Learning Consent, discussing consent and pleasure, and another episode with Axel, Nathaniel Rose, discussing trans healthcare and medical consent. So we'd really recommend you to go back and give those a listen.

So opening up to anyone who would like to share their thoughts, um, consent in drag performance spaces, and what are some key points that you would like our listeners to take [00:46:00] away?

Roxee Horror: I'm happy to start off with this one by all means. Yeah, because I feel like, uh, it's a little bit different for me personally, uh, because when I'm in drag, uh, most of my outfits, the only part of my natural skin that is exposed are my fingertips, right?

Literally. Um, I have fake boobs, usually a corset, fake hips, four or five pairs of stockings, sometimes a, a breast plate on. If someone grabs any part of me, I don't feel it. So I am personally not affected by it. It's the, the premise of it. So, um, I often nothing that you see on Roxee is real. Not one part of me is real. You can touch all the fakeness.

Mm.

Roxee Horror: If I, yeah, if I had all of my natural body on display, I think I would have a very, very, very different view on this.

That's why I wanted to go first. 'cause it's a bit of a different take with me.

Maddy Stratten: It is really interesting. 'cause I think it's also, you know, it is part of Roxee [00:47:00] Horror, but it's welcomed and it's invited and so, you know, if, if you are saying to an audience member, you can grab my. You know, hip padding. Yeah. My butt, my hip padding.

Um, then that, then that's okay, but if, you know, you might not feel someone, you know, touch you inappropriately, but then the people who are watching that are seeing that that's okay. Right, exactly. Right. Then it's creating this culture of that, oh, that's something that you can do here, you can do that to Roxee Horror

Could I do that? To Cherry Ripe? Yeah.

Roxee Horror: And that's where it's, it's such a blurry line, you know,

Cherry Ripe: and in, in like, in continuing on with that, I think it's something like, I'm one of the queens that, I do wear pads and stuff sometimes, but not all the time. I do sometimes get my like, bare ass out and I'd be like, you know, doing, doing hot shit on stage sometimes.

So I understand that I can be like sexualized and perceived in a [00:48:00] sexual way by the audience through some of my performances. And that is the goal of some of my performances, obviously not all of them. I'm also like very silly sometimes. Mm-hmm. But I think with that as well, like I've been, like, people have grabbed me on my crotch, like on my bare bum and like really kind of like just not cool stuff in, in like these spaces where, and not even just in event spaces, but like on my way home, like at Maccas, you know, just getting my food and people coming around.

Like, and also like, I, I don't think it's the people listening to this podcast that need to hear this and be told this, right? Mm-hmm. Like I'm sure all of our listeners are beautiful, lovely people who are aware of this and aware of what is like right and wrong. But there is that wider community that I think can see drag performers as like sexual objects that are there to kind of like be enjoyed as entertainment and.

Yeah, I don't know, like mm-hmm. It is very, like, tough. Mm-hmm. [00:49:00]

Roxee Horror: I, I would just add to that too, that I personally, uh, in or outta drag am a um, a very sex positive person. Um, yeah, I'm a very sexual person. Uh, so, and I'm, I mean, everyone who knows Roxee knows that about me. So for me, at these events, uh, it's, I'm, I'm just like that, that's, I'm very over sexualized.

Mm-hmm.

Roxee Horror: Um, obviously I know my boundaries with people, um, but when you're saying doing numbers and that most of my numbers have something to do with, with something stupid and something sexual. Yeah. That's shtick. Um, so, you know, often I'll bring someone up on stage and I'll, I'll drink a glass of water and spit out the water, making it look like something else.

People expect that with Roxee. Um, but like, I. If someone just comes up to me and starts macking on me in the middle of a club, very different situation to like me bring someone up on stage and kind of pre telling them, I'm going through this to you on stage. Does that make sense? No, [00:50:00] because

Maddy Stratten: you're asking for their consent as Oh, 100%.

It goes two ways it goes. Yeah.

Roxee Horror: I, I, I learned early on in drag that, um, with my numbers, especially if I'm getting right up and personable with people that not everybody wants that. Mm-hmm. And I kind of thought, 'cause being someone who like always wanted to be involved, if I went to a show no matter what, I want to be put up on stage.

Mm-hmm. I just kind of assumed that was like a nature in a lot of people. Um. So, yeah. I've learned early on with my drag performances and that, that like if I'm planning to do something that's a little bit risque, I will definitely have the consent from the person prior. Mm-hmm. And, and will um, make sure they know fully what's gonna happen.

Absolutely.

Cherry Ripe: Absolutely. 'cause I've seen in the past drag performers do things on the fly and interact with the audience without consent and that is terrifying. Yeah. As an audience member being interacted with touched like, on like flipping this on the other end, you know, 'cause we get touched, but flipping it on the other end as a drag audience member being touched and interacted with when you [00:51:00] don't want to be terrifying.

Yeah. So, yeah, it's definitely so important to like, have that communication and conversation.

Lawrence of Australia: I also, I mean I mentioned this before we started recording, but I feel like it's almost the nature that because we're such like a nocturnal community, we do, we are operating in clubs where, you know, everyone's an adult, so you know booze is, you know, flowing, flowing. Mm-hmm. And so, you know, yeah. People may act, you know, act like we are there for sexual gratification act with lowered inhibitions because, you know, it's hard for us to go out in the day, first of all, 'cause of the weather. Like today was just started. But also just because, yeah, it's, it's, you know, it's harder to, you know, public displays of affection with your partner being gender non conforming in the daylight in public.

Um, but in the safety of our clubs where we know everyone's of age and we can let down our inhibitions, that's a beautiful thing for our community. But because that is the area, it also means that people [00:52:00] are less responsible with social etiquette and the way that they treat the people who are entertaining them.

Winnie Adamson: Absolutely. I guess that's an interesting note. I'll just add from, um, your comment there, Lawrence to Roxee's comment before about how there isn't a queer club here. There's no queer cafes. There's no queer like Yeah, like venues. You are in the straight venues. Yeah. And so people are coming to those venues, maybe not even aware that there's actually a queer event on not expecting to see drag queens.

you know, like that. I think that's, yeah, really good point.

Roxee Horror: That's the one thing that I've noticed from the beginning of like, when I started drag in Wollongong, there was one, two events every two, three months. Um. At the top of the tennis club in like rural, like mm-hmm. Middle of Wollongong. That's where I got my outlet of drag.

Um, also a straight venue though. Um, but now nine years later we've, we've got sometimes upwards of six events at a time in Wollongong. Yeah. Um, and it's just [00:53:00] really cool a to see that growth. But, um, from the beginning we have, we haven't had a queer space. We haven't, our queer spaces were at straight venues,

literally for the

Roxee Horror: past 10 years.

We had Castros before that, um, that, that failed. That was around for a while. They got rid of drag queens, they put in go-go dancers, and then it just flopped. And we never got another venue since before that it was checkers in the eighties, drag was thriving in checkers. Yeah. Um, and you know, it's, it's very interesting when you think about Wollongong and, and drag within Wollongong, um.

I've, I feel like we're, we are the current generation of Drag in Wollongong. Mm-hmm. Hmm. But we've, they've been around, they've been around for all of these years. Um, I recently was chatting to two of the Queens, miss Kara Van Park and, um, miss Deedee Lamar, I Icon. Um, they are two queens who worked, uh, locally in Wollongong, uh, in the eighties and nineties.

Mm. Um, and they come to events now and stuff like that. And I just love having chats with them about how much the scene [00:54:00] changed for them. But even saying that they had a queer venue that they got to work at when they were here. It's so baffling to me that in the nineties and the early two thousands, there was a queer venue here.

Oh. With no scene. And now there is a big scene and no venues. It's like we, it just doesn't make sense. Makes sense. Make it make sense. Make

Winnie Adamson: it sense. Um, yeah. Who's starting that

Lawrence of Australia: magazine? Anyone out there expensive art form to take part in? It's like, yeah. It's, you know, starting up a club. Yeah. When we're already paying for like, well, what you can see right now. Yeah. Um, it's, yeah. Very expensive. It's very few people are making a lot of money off of drag.

Roxee Horror: Oh. It's literally, and like I was looking at the potential of, if I could even look at opening up a club down here years ago.

Mm-hmm. Um, just not feasible as a drag queen on a drag queen salary. [00:55:00] Mm-hmm. Um, and even someone who's worked hard to get the rate that I get paid today. Mm-hmm. I was doing gigs for 50 bucks when I first started. Yeah. Um. There is no way that I could run one of these things. Um, I

Maddy Stratten: just think, you know, having a space like that would open up so many doors for a lot of people.

And I'm thinking even in terms of like a hireable space for things like this. You know, having a, having a live studio audience, having, you know, a podcast space, you know, it's, it's, it's like the nocturnal stuff that you were talking about, but also those like community spaces that are safe and especially for young people who might not be of age to enter clubs as well.

Exactly.

Cherry Ripe: Absolutely. Mm-hmm. I think there's such a huge need. I think I'm hearing, like I'm talking to a lot of people in the community and so many people are calling out for it, I think. Mm. It's just the money. Yeah.

Maddy Stratten: And especially for a space where, you know, where, where you can have sexual health resources Absolutely.

And mental health services linked [00:56:00] in, and a space that is, you know, alcohol and drug free for people who need that. You know, it could absolutely, it could really. I never

Roxee Horror: actually thought of that. That is so important. That is something that a sober space. Uh, a lot of our events are heavily, um,

Cherry Ripe: centered,

Roxee Horror: centered around alcohol.

Mm. Um, I never thought. As ignorant, it is the sober people to come and enjoy drag who don't wanna be put in those spaces.

Maddy Stratten: Yeah. I think about, wow, I think about, um, Hannah Gadsby in, what was the first Nanette Nanette. Nanette, yes. Where she talks about, um, the sound of that, like the pride flag is too busy.

Mm-hmm. And too much is going on. And, um, she prefers the sound of her teacup finding its way on the, on the saucer. And I thought, oh my gosh. There is this whole community of people who are like, actually, you know, going to a club's a bit much, I'd like to be in bed by nine with my cup of tea. Absolutely.

And I don't wanna be excluded from [00:57:00] the queer community because that's who I am. Um, I love the little side quest that we went on. Yes. Um, so for any listeners who, um, might have a spare, you know, couple of million dollars, throw it our way. Let us know. We can hook you up with some. Okay. I want to, um, I wanna move into, uh, a potential question, which, when we were talking about this, this morning. Mm-hmm. And when we were talking about consent and being approached, and I thought, you know, what about when you are outside of drag and you are going grocery shopping?

Yes. And somebody approaches you and is just like, oh my God, you're Roxee Horror. And then, well, where's the consent? What's appropriate? What's not appropriate? Um, what is, what is that like being approached and is that something that, um, is something that happens? Yeah,

Roxee Horror: it is something that happens [00:58:00] funnily enough, which is.

Mind boggling to me. Like I don't understand it. Um, but I think it can go two ways. Mm. Yeah. Um, I've had situations, uh, at nightclubs where people, um, have seen me out of drag and realize that I was Roxee and they would be ignoring me the whole night. And as soon as they realize I'm Roxee, they are my best friend.

Maddy Stratten: Interesting.

Roxee Horror: Um, I don't like that. I do not vibe with that at all. Don't you know what I mean? Not me. Yeah. Um, uh, I've also had people at nightclubs who, um, are so drunk and when they realize that you are Roxee or you are the drag performer, they think you are, they try and hug you and they pull your wig, sorry, out of drag, different situation.

But when you're in drag, I hate it when I get a hug in drag and my wig gets pulled back.

Maddy Stratten: Mm.

Roxee Horror: Biggest pet peeve.

Maddy Stratten: Take note listening. Take

Roxee Horror: if you hug a drag queen, don't actually make contact.

Maddy Stratten: Hug, hug hugs and air better because we are hug.

Roxee Horror: Um. Oh, I've just lost my train of [00:59:00] thought, but, uh, I had a really good point.

Um, there was a two Can you say what you used said again to me?

Maddy Stratten: You were talking about when you're in a club and somebody, um, approaches you Oh.

Roxee Horror: And it can go two ways. Yes. So, um, I've had the really positive experiences though, where, um, I went to McDonald's once, this is my favorite story. Um, just ordering my Maccas in Wollongong.

And I was wearing a shirt, which was my old YouTube shirt that had a picture of me in drag on it. Um, and it was called Word Vomit. And she goes, oh, word vomit. I love Roxee. And then I, I thought she was saying that 'cause she realized I was Roxee and my, my quote is, Roxee, stop it. Oh. So I said to her, oh, stop it.

And she goes, and then just started bawling her eyes at her manager had to come over and take over the sale. Oh my God. I just walked away from that on such a high Oh wow. Like, it made me feel so special that I evoked that feeling in somebody. Um, but that's what I mean, so I hate it. In clubs when someone's drunk and they don't wanna borrow you until they realize who you are.

But I [01:00:00] love it when you get the genuine people who are just like, oh my God, I can't believe I'm actually getting to to see you.

Maddy Stratten: Yeah.

Roxee Horror: It is baffling though because like, I, like, I've just been having fun with my friends for the past eight years. I, there is no, in my mind, no possibility of a celebrity status within Roxee.

So I don't understand how that happens. But it still feels really nice. It feels really good.

Cherry Ripe: Yeah, it's pretty slow when it does happen. Like it's, there's definitely that duality there of like, I recently moved and I'm living in Central Wollongong, so sometimes it'll be like 9:00 AM like I'll wake up you know, had a gig the night before.

I'm going down, I just wanna get like a coffee or a bloody banh mi from the bakery. I am looking rough, like rugged. I don't want to be recognized, like, do not, do not talk to me. I'm getting my food, I'm going home, I'm going back to bed. And there's like that where I have been recognized and I'm like, oh my God.

Like, not this, like, not this, [01:01:00] but then there's other moments where like, I remember back, like earlier on in my drag career, I was just like running for a train or something. I, I would think I was running away from the train to like, I was rushing somewhere. Mm-hmm. And there was just this woman at the train station, she was like, that's cherry ride.

And I was like, what the hell it was? I was like, oh, I'm famous.

Roxee Horror: You know what though? You're so identifiable with your hair as well, your hair, because you used it in and out drag. And even as you dj, I think that whether you've got a full mug or not, from like 500 meters away, you just see cherry, right.

Walking down.

Lawrence of Australia: I love it. Oh, love. It's Murphy. I, I mean, I feel lucky that like the audience that I've curated are usually really lovely. So I feel like I don't get many people who are like, like, you're not really gonna get a lot of clout as a drag king. So it's like, I feel like there's not really people who are like, oh my God, you're Lawrence of Australia.

Can you book me? Like, no, I'm barely making rent Um, but [01:02:00] um, I know that it actually has been really positive at like my workplace because I'm a line cook, which is, you know, a bit of a blokey job and I work with a lot of blokes. And even in the hospitality industry at large, you get like. Hmm. I wanted a man for this job, but you'll have to do, you know, you'll have to impress me.

And it's like uphill battle kind of thing. But then there was a bloke at work who, um, was like, Hey, I saw your poster around the uni. You, you know, Lawrence Australia? And I was like, yeah, that is me. Um, and he is like, oh, cool, cool, cool. And you could tell he was trying to like connect with me. So he was like, so you watching the most recent season of Drag Race?

And I was like, yeah, who are you rooting for? And he's like, oh, Susie too, da da da da. Anyway, but it was like, it was like a sense of like connection, you know, you know, building that kind of thing. So it is nice to be visible sometimes and recognizable. It's fine. Yeah. Very bad.

Roxee Horror: And, and one thing that, I dunno if you realized it yourself, but like, just you being Lawrence in Wollongong is so important for people that might not even tell you about it.

[01:03:00] Real, do you know what I mean? So real. So if, if you don't have like. I, I, I'm saying don't dis don't discount yourself. Mm. Because I guarantee you that people are having these same epiphanies with you, but are too scared to come and say it to you. Oh, guarantee it.

Lawrence of Australia: I'm glad I have a resting bitch face. No, no, no.

I, I prefer it as a woman. I prefer to be like, don't try it. You know what I mean?

Maddy Stratten: I mean, but it's even, you know, if somebody runs into you, you know, in the shops or in, you know, wherever you are, and they, are they going to call you Lawrence? Are they going to call you Isabelle? Are they like. How, how do they engage in that way?

And do they just freak out and be like, oh my God, I think that's those, I don't know how to approach them. Um, do I talk to them in their drag name or as who they are right now? And so it's like, maybe, maybe that [01:04:00] just doesn't happen because people aren't sure. And so I think that's part of breaking that down and that barrier down for our audience of listeners.

How would you want them to approach you? I guess like, that's a good question.

Roxee Horror: With love. Yeah. That's like literally like, I don't care what you've gotta say, as long as you're coming with love. Like, you know what I mean? If they aren't. Anyone who approaches Roxee come and say hello. I'm gonna say hello back.

You come and be nasty to me. I'm gonna treat you the same way you're treating me. So like I take that element in every, every aspect of life, not just drag, but, um, yeah. So anyone listening, if you wanna come and see, say hello to Roxee, don't be afraid to do it. Just be nice about it.

Cherry Ripe: Yeah. Yeah. Insane. Same.

Like, I also am like, um, learning that I'm quite visually impaired and I've got glasses, but I don't always wear them. And often when I'm out and about, people will recognize me and like wave at me, but I'll be like, so like trying to [01:05:00] in my eyes and being like, who is that? Like, be like, hey, but like, I dunno who you're like, yeah, I dunno.

As long as it's like warm and nice. Um, and maybe like. Chill. Chill. Like, don't always be like, oh my God. Yeah. Yeah. Like if I'm just going in the shops, like, don't, don't be screaming at me. Like, but like say hi. I love, it's always nice.

Lawrence of Australia: Oh my God. I would love if you screamed at me like I was a celebrity, I would love that.

I would love be treated like Paris Hilton Point, but I mean, I can't speak for anyone else, but like, the line between Isabella and Lawrence is so blurred that if you come up and use, you know, he, him pronouns and Lawrence like, that's completely fine with me. Mm-hmm. . So like I completely understand if people would use my drag name and be like, oh, that's you. But I don't, I, I see people who come to my drag bingo and I'll smile at them on the street and they will not clock me at all. How

Roxee Horror: helpful is that? I feel like such a good

Lawrence of Australia: makeup artist when that happens.

I'm like, oh, so exciting. I've contoured Isabella right out. Yeah,

Roxee Horror: I used to [01:06:00] work at the brewery for four years in Wollongong and um, towards the end of my time there, I came out of drag to pick up one of my bags that I left there. And the guy who I'd worked with who'd seen me every single Thursday for four years was like, oh, hi, how can I help you?

And I was like, I'm here to pick up my stuff. He's like, oh, that's Roxee's stuff. And I was like, I'm Roxee. I literally went and the penny dropped. But it's so interesting when, when people do not know, don't recognize you out drag.

Maddy Stratten: Um, I wanna bring us back to talking about the local drag community and it's really, meaningful impacts.

Mm-hmm. So you all, um, I know you all have stories to share about times where in your work drag has led to trans allyship, unofficial mentorship of LGBTQIA plus community members, connectors to sexual health information, resources and services, and of course advocacy for, uh, social issues, highlighting gender inequality, [01:07:00] housing insecurity, HIV stigma, um, anti LGBTQIA plus violence and economic disenfranchisement, economic disenfranchisement, franchisement, um, and economic disenfranchisement.

So, again, I wanna open this question up to whoever would like to share the impacts of local drag culture on community.

Cherry Ripe: 1000000%. I think it's so important and so huge. Like me, myself, when I first came into the community and the scene, like I mentioned earlier, like I was super young and like living out of home, trying to like navigate this big wide world at like such a young age and it was scary.

But I had so much love and support. Like this bitch right next to me, Roxee Horror was there from the get go. Like I have an official drag mother who's now retired. Her name's the fabulous Miss Patsy declined, miss

Roxee Horror: Patsy

Cherry Ripe: and my now Adopt a Drag mother and like so many [01:08:00] other people in the queer community as well have done, have done so much for me in giving me a safe place to sleep when I needed it.

Giving me advice when I didn't have anyone else to go to, when my family didn't understand what was going on. And our community are the ones that have that shared experience that you can lean on when you need support, and then growing up and finding myself and finding my feet and now having younger queer people come and looking up to me now is crazy.

Like i've

got a few like friends who are 18 and like younger, and having them kind of like see me as like how I saw Roxee almost is like bonkers, but there's power in it. And I think it's important to like recognize that and honor that. Like I think being visibly queer is so important and it's so hard sometimes because there is that backlash and like I still get yelled at out of cars when I'm walking down the street and like people still try and pick fights with me or like say shit.

[01:09:00] Like I still get that backlash. But I think being visibly queer and showing yourself in these everyday public places. Makes it feel more okay for younger generations who are coming through to see like, oh, like she looks like that. I, I think that's cool. Maybe I wanna look like that. I can be, it's okay to want to be like that and be different.

And I think there's heaps of power in that.

Roxee Horror: Even on the opposite end of the spectrum. You're saying as a young queer person, as an older, queer person, I came into the queer scene at 27. Um, I was in a monogamous relationship from 17 to 27. Me and my ex, we were together for 10 years. When he and I broke up, I didn't know anybody.

I didn't have a queer, I didn't have queer friends. We lived in, in our own little bubble. So all of a sudden I didn't have, I didn't know what community was, I didn't grow up with a queer community. I grew up with a, [01:10:00] a young person who was queer and we kind of found queerness through each other so different to actually finding a queer community.

So

Cherry Ripe: yeah,

Roxee Horror: I genuinely think. Wollongong, as I said at the start with the whole coordinate of belonging thing, I really struggled with that, trying to wrap my head around it. Yeah. But at at, at its core, I am who I am. I belong because of the queer community in Wollongong. Um, even though I'm moving to Queensland soon, which is gonna be really sad, but, but I, I owe everything to Wollongong, Wollongong queer community because I as an old person, older person, um, not just coming out.

I'd already done the coming out stuff. I did that back in when I was 14. Like, I had done that, but I didn't have a space when I was single for the first time at 27. So I feel like that's really important for all ages, not just young,

Lawrence of Australia: even beyond our own community. Like, I remember my second ever gig was through you and Pablo actually at Port Kembla for funding the Firies when the fires were raging, [01:11:00] uh, in early 2020.

We were both in that show and obviously, so were you. And so it's like, it's not just a case of like us sequestering ourselves away because, you know, we need to build each other up. It's actually about the fact that we are all citizens of this country and, you know, we're going to exercise our right to make change and mm-hmm.

Make a positive difference, you know, however we can, you're, you're right to, to entertain and to educate, but also, yeah, like, you know, we do as much as any other, you know, straight or cisgender person trying to make the world a better place even for those who might, you know, throw us in a ditch if they, if they so wanted to.

Yeah, absolutely. But that doesn't change the fact that

Cherry Ripe: we still care.

Lawrence of Australia: Yeah. We, we have a, a deep connection to every single person. In Wollongong. I love Wollongong, this city. I love it. So

Roxee Horror: do I like, even though I, I've just, I'm at a point with drag. It's been so long that I just wanna do something different.

I'll always be Roxee, I'll always have Roxee there. I just don't wanna work as Roxee anymore. Mm-hmm. [01:12:00] Um, so by going to Queensland, I'm so excited for such a big change, but I'm so scared about what community I'm gonna have up there, if any. I feel like my support is still all gonna be in Wollongong, so if I have any issues up in Queensland, it's gonna be like, oh my God, cherry, guess what?

Yeah. Me up. So, and I feel like, and I was saying to Cherry, I am so nervous about that, but Cherry was saying, you've come back in 10 years and everyone's still gonna be like, you are Roxee, we love you.

Maddy Stratten: Absolutely. And

Roxee Horror: like, that was just really nice to hear that like, you know, uh, my, my, my belonging a hundred percent is always gonna be here.

Winnie Adamson: Yeah. Beautiful. Beautiful. Yeah. This really demonstrates the value of, um, performance art and strong sense of community and real impact that has on so many lives. It's so powerful. Makes us feel a difference. Mm-hmm. Yeah, for sure. Yeah. Um, if any of our listeners are interested in learning more about the queer space, we also encourage you to listen back to episodes On The Couch with Chris Cheer and also episode with Kirli Saunders.

Mm.

Maddy Stratten: Especially, um, those [01:13:00] episodes are really great in terms of the queer art space.

Mm.

Maddy Stratten: Um, and you know, really we're talking about drag, um, art and so, uh, Kirli Saunders and Chris Cheer talk about other, um, art in the queer space.

Winnie Adamson: Yeah.

Maddy Stratten: Very cool.

Winnie Adamson: Um, this has been such an energizing episode of On the Couch, and can I say there's been so many moments hearing stories from you all and my just got goosebumps in my body of just how.

I don't know, Beautiful. It's hearing from all of you. Yeah. Thank you. Yeah. I would love for you all three to just share a little bit of where, um, where you wanna see the future of drag and what is it that you would like our listeners to walk away with today.

Roxee Horror: I just want to see the future of drag still existing.

Mm-hmm. I, I think we are in a boom at the moment and, um, it's gonna go down. I just want us to still be around even when we're not in the, in the mainstream anymore. [01:14:00] Um, and I want to, if anyone does anything, listening to this support local drag. Yeah. Like if you, you can love your RuPaul's Drag Race. You can love your media on drag, but if you don't go to these venues.

Straight or not, and support these queer artists, these queer drag performers. We're not gonna thrive. We're not gonna have, we're not gonna do it. It's not that we don't want to, we won't be able to. So. Mm-hmm.

Lawrence of Australia: Well, yes, actually that's like, that's so important that like, local drag is such a load bearing column in the drag community.

You, you can watch Drag Race and you can pay $600 for like a meet and greet with Trixie and Cart or whatever. Yeah. But like, if you don't like, go to fundraisers and actually like pay the door fee to get into these places and, you know, be a customer, like the sort of commodity fetishism that has existed and made these drag queens that we see in the mainstream media look so beautiful and polished.

It's like, actually you need mentors. You need open mic nights. You need people who are doing wigs and doing garments and designing things and [01:15:00] inventing new ways of doing drag. And so we need to make sure that local drag industry is kept sustained, because otherwise you're not gonna have the drag stars that would've started here and ended up here.

Mm-hmm. Without that entire ecosystem actually inventing, you know, and designing and allowing them to even get to that space.

Roxee Horror: And with supporting local artists, I feel like drag queens, drag kings, drag things, drag stars, you have to support your local artists as well.

Do you know what I mean? Like, if, if the performers aren't going to support each other, then the foundation itself just is going to crack. Do you know what I mean? Yeah. So in the same respect, yes. People listening, go and support it. But if you're a drag performer and you're listening, go and support local drag.

Yes.

Maddy Stratten: And 'cause we talk, we talked about this. As a community and that's what it is. And we wanna be building each other up and not [01:16:00] gatekeeping and pa like paying it forward and sharing information, sharing services, and sharing contacts and connections because why? Yeah, why would we hold that back? Yeah,

Roxee Horror: exactly right.

Cherry Ripe: Long lived drag.

Jen Farinella: Thanks for listening to On The Couch. We create this podcast because we are allies in actively challenging discrimination, microaggressions and exclusionary behaviors. We want to create spaces where people feel safe to share their thoughts, knowing they will be heard and respected. Such an environment fosters collaboration, innovation, and contributes to a more inclusive society.

We invite you to subscribe or follow us in your favorite podcast platform. That way you'll receive every new episode when it's released. To help us grow the podcast, give us a rating and leave us a review. We'd really appreciate it. Connect with us on Instagram and Facebook where you can share on the couch with your colleagues, friends, and family On The Couch is made by Jennifer Farinella, Naomi Viret, Maddy Stratten and Winnie Adamson.

Until next time, peace, love, and protection.