On The Couch with Soaliha Iqbal Transcript

Maddy Stratten: [00:00:00] Hi, and welcome to another episode of On the Couch, where we collaborate with experts, practitioners, authors, advocates, and influencers to explore current social themes, sex positive topics, and share stories and insights that matter.

Winnie Adamson: This podcast was recorded on Aboriginal country. We Acknowledge the traditional custodians of the lands that were never seeded on which we live, work, and record upon.

Maddy Stratten: We pay our respect to elders past and present, and to those who may be visiting our website or listening to our podcast today.

Winnie Adamson: While listening. We encourage you to practice good self-care, and of course, check the show notes for further information.

Maddy Stratten: Wherever you are, whatever you're doing,

Winnie Adamson: enjoy this episode of On the Couch.

I'm Winnie Adamson, and today I'm joined with Soaliha Iqbal. Hello and welcome.

Soaliha Iqbal: Hi, it's so good to be here. Thanks for having me.

Winnie Adamson: I'm so excited to get into our chat today and our listeners can [00:01:00] read your full bio in the show notes, and please give it a read if you haven't already, because Soaliha bio is incredibly impressive.

But as always, we'd love to use the concepts of field of existence and coordinates of belonging. These concepts were introduced to us by Leah from co-culture communications, and demonstrate that our beings are a field made up of activity, stories that we've been told our ancestors have existed, the land under our feet and the places that we stand, and all these forces form who we are in the moment as contextual beings.

So, Soaliha I'll hand to you. How do you define and locate yourself and what are your coordinates of belonging?

Soaliha Iqbal: Um, first of all, hello everyone. I would also like to acknowledge that I am currently on the land of Wurundjeri Woi Wurrung people of the Kulin Nation. So, um, I'm actually in Melbourne today. Um, I love that question.

I was really looking into, I guess, this framework for how to locate yourself. Really fascinating and [00:02:00] beautiful. I grew up, um, on Dharug Land in Western Sydney in a small suburb of Mount Druit Um, and then I lived in South Sydney, um, on the land of the Bidjigal and Gadigal people of the Eora Nation. And now I live in Melbourne, as I said, um, the land of the Wurundjeri Woi Wurrung people of the Kulin Nation near the Merri Creek.

And it's really interesting how much that land, I would say like does anchor me, um, as well. Like I live near the Merri Creek Trail at the moment, and I feel like when I think of my, like who I am and my identity and where I live, like I really think of that trail. I've just been walking it a lot lately.

It's been like a mental health anchor for me. Um, moving to a new city is scary and daunting when you don't know anyone and it's been really nice to like, feel part of a community in the area that I've moved to. Everyone's really lovely and. [00:03:00] I think like now when I think of where I locate myself, I know I've given like quite a literal definition of that, like locationally, but for the first time, that actually matters to me.

Like I feel like if you had asked me this question a couple of years ago, I wouldn't really have thought of place. I would've answered it a bit more metaphysically. Um, but I really do feel like a connection to the community in the area that I live. And I kind of now situate myself as somebody whose identity is intertwined with the people that I live around at the moment.

Um, just a little bit about myself. I am the child of Pakistani immigrants, um, who moved to Australia before I was born. So I'm a first generation immigrant. Um. I love to write and to read. You guys can see like the massive bookshelf behind me that we were just chatting about. Um, and I'm really passionate about discussing the race and power relations in [00:04:00] so-called Australia and how we can challenge them every single day and everything that we do.

And how race, you know, I think can often be seen as a really marginalized identity, but it's also something that can be really grounding and culture can be really beautiful and it's not always, um, this thing that is bad for us. You know, I think that is an easy way to see it and it's not that way. So, yeah, I'm not quite sure if that totally answers your question, but I hope that gives people a sense of who I am and where I'm from physically, and also my like lineage of thought.

Winnie Adamson: Yeah. Thank you so much for sharing. It does. I think the great thing about this concept, and we've had it as an introduction On The Couch for a while now, is that everyone takes it from wherever they currently are and where they're at. And that is really powerful because it does show who you are, I think, in a unique way.

Um, and I think it's nice to spend some time here because where we've grown up and where we've come from [00:05:00] really reinforce the work that we do. And I know that from you Soaliha in your work, it's very, from your lived experience and very, a lot of passion. So thank you so much for that. Um, but getting into your work now, your work is very rooted in your lived experience as a Muslim woman in the media space here in Australia.

And I love this strong, powerful and thoughtful, um, voice that you've built through exploring politics, feminism, pop culture, anti capitalism, and how they intersect in that colonial context. You explore many of these intersections through your podcast Here's The Thing Tho which you co-host with your creative partner and husband Mitch Price.

Which I listen to a lot actually, and I really am inspired by your raw and unapologetic approach, and whether it's calling things out, naming what's uncomfortable or speaking really honestly about topics and events in Australia and globally as well. So I'd really love to start our chat [00:06:00] today here. Thinking about the start of your podcast and the your public social presence, can you take us back to the beginning and what sparked the idea of the podcast and what conversations were you eager to be having, you weren't hearing elsewhere?

Soaliha Iqbal: Um, it's actually kind of a strange origin story, so I, okay, maybe it starts with meeting my partner, um, in university and having really good conversations and, you know, um, maybe an important part of our dynamic early on is that I was kind of the first Muslim person he had ever really met. Um, and so we would talk a lot about like, religion and race and he would ask me a lot of questions and then we would have like interesting conversations about the racial politics in Australia, and especially around colonialism and white privilege as well, in particular.

Um, and fast forward to kind of randomly, I was, I had a, I made my Instagram account to commentate on the Bachelor. Um, [00:07:00] I was in like a lot of Facebook groups, this is like cerca like, I don't know, 20 18, 20 19, 20 20. At a time where Facebook groups were very popular because COVID was happening and pandemics were happening and lockdowns were happening, and the kind of only way we were connecting with each other was online.

So I was one of those active like keyboard warriors and Facebook groups, um, where people were all watching The Bachelor. And I felt like I kind of wanted a racial framework to talk about The Bachelor because the season that I was watching, I felt like there was a lot of, um, like microaggressions occurring and just like kind of, you know, reality TV is such a microcosm of all the factors that we come across every day in our social lives.

And it can really put to the forefront things that we don't typically criticize or think about that now we are because it's on tv. And I was like, I'm gonna make an Instagram account and talk about The Bachelor, which is what I was doing. And it kind of just like. Actually popped off, I got commissioned to write a piece about racism on the Bachelor and you know, kind of the casual, uh, white [00:08:00] supremacy that you see, you can see on Australian reality TV in particular, because as I said before, we do think of it as a microcosm of our society and it is, but what does that say when the cast are almost always white?

Because maybe it's a reflection of the way people, uh, interact with each other. Or maybe it's a reflection of the way a certain type of people interact with each other. And so we like to think really TV reflects the world back at us. And sometimes it does, but also like not quite the whole world, right?

So yeah, randomly the Bachelor just was my in. And then as that was kind of generating quite a bit of interest and people were talking about it, my partner was like, you know, you've been thinking about starting a podcast for a while, maybe now is the time. People seem interested in what you have to say.

You're obviously tapping into something that needed to be tapped into. Maybe the Bachelor wasn't the plan. Maybe that's not what you wanted to be known for, but like, you know, take this opportunity and do something with it. And I thought that was really [00:09:00] good advice. I do not edit the podcast, Mitch does.

So I like needed him as well to like, help with the technical side. 'cause I was like playing the episodes of doing, um, a lot of the scripting and research and he was doing kind of the technical element, which is why I would refer to him as kind of my producer. Um. So the two of us just thought we had a bit of momentum and we wanted to run with it.

And so that's kind of how the podcast started. Really initially, the plan was to talk about race, and that can be in many forms. It can be by talking about The Bachelor, it can be by talking about popular movies and racial representation and tokenism. We talked about dating and interracial dating 'cause we're an interracial couple and some of the, you know, perceptions people have of that.

It just like, I think it kind of started off as a bit of an everything podcast, it was like, I don't wanna call it messy. 'cause that seems like a negative connotation, a little bit chaotic, I would say. Like sometimes I, people talk to me a lot about the early [00:10:00] episodes and I'm like, I've repressed those from my memory.

Like they're really chaotic. Um, I think then we eventually, kind of, as we would do, we just kind of learned by doing and then figured it out and streamlined it to discussing popular topics and sometimes a bit of like philosophy, um, and media theory, but always within the framework of centering, like racial dynamics, colonial powers, um, white supremacy and capitalism, right?

And the way that these are powers that work together and uplift one another in order to marginalize certain groups. And it's kind of funny how many things you can talk about with that as your framework. We've got episodes on like the economy of tiny homes, which sounds really random, but actually I promise you it's a really interesting rabbit hole.

Um, we talk about, you know, uh. God, now I'm just blanking. But we've got, we've got like probably 60 something episodes out and it's kind of, sometimes I think back and I'm surprised by the real array of things we've managed to discuss with that framework. Um, but [00:11:00] yeah, so I think really the niche that we wanted to move into is Australian media and Australian podcasts can be very white and not very political in that sense as well.

Like we've got news podcasts or we've got politics podcasts, but very few that center race and um, you know, criticism of colonial powers probably because people are afraid to do that, especially in media, which can be very insular and where you don't wanna rock the boat too much 'cause you don't wanna lose your position.

I mean, we'll get to representation in media in a second. Um, but I think that that gap has been there for a long time and is maybe only just recently starting to be filled over the last couple of years. So. Yeah, it was definitely recognizing that that gap and also having something to say that really pushed me towards setting a podcast.

Winnie Adamson: Yeah, I love that. I really love how, um, you've said messy and I understand why, but I also think [00:12:00] it's, so that's what makes it so unique and great is because you really are so broad with so many topics you discuss and as we'll get to later, like all of these things are underpinned by these structures of colonialism and white supremacy.

And so I find it really interesting. Even like tiny homes, I haven't actually listened to that episode yet, but I'm inspired and going to hear what it actually is about because I'm sure there is so much underneath it all. Um, it's nice to hear about the beginning of the work and you've definitely found a space that's needed.

Um. You know, you really push some uncomfortable conversations forward and make people think out the box. I think for myself in that case too, um, I really wanna explore that idea of uncomfortable verse, unsafe. I think it's an area that's really been on my mind and quite relevant right now.

And I know for me, my colleague Maddy, we were, we've [00:13:00] been thinking about this a lot since we're at the World Association of Sexual Health Congress in June this year. Um, and we heard Kai Schweizer speak and they said it's okay to sit in discomfort, but it's not okay to feel unsafe. And I think this really resonated with me and the work that we do here at Caddyshack as health promotion officers promoting and educating sexual health matters from STI awareness, condom use to healthy relationships, conversations on consent, and approaching sexual health from a really holistic, um, positive space.

It can be so important when navigating sexual wellness to understand the difference between what is uncomfortable, what is unsafe, because getting through that discomfort of talking about sex consent relationships is not only important for us physically, but mentally and our relationships too. Um, you talk about this in your work, which one of your podcast episodes centers around, and when you say, in order for us to really [00:14:00] sit down and have these difficult and honest conversations and make meaningful change, we need to learn to sit with this discomfort.

And as a journalist, your work looks through a decolonial lens and highlights how white supremacy underscores our societies. Can you talk to this approach and how the idea of unsafe versus uncomfortable sits within your work of decolonizing minds and perspectives of the world? What does it mean to be uncomfortable and what does conflating that with safety become a problem?

Soaliha Iqbal: So it's really interesting, the podcast that I episode that I posted about that um, was kind of a part two to a podcast episode I uploaded a couple of years ago now, probably called Safe Spaces. Um, and there has been discourse about safe spaces for a long time. There's a lot of like academic discourse around what constitutes a safe space and what that actually means.

And I think it's a really interesting thi thing to interrogate, especially when we have [00:15:00] episodes like this where we talk about this being a safe space, what actually is a safe space? Because something that, and this is not me necessarily criticizing. The idea of a safe space, but something that we don't talk about enough or that we don't reckon with enough, is that in order for a space to be safe for some people, it has to be exclusive of other people.

And this is not always a bad thing. So for example, a space that is really safe for queer people, we'll have to be an unsafe space for homophobic people, right? They need to be unwelcome into this space to keep it safe for the marginalized group that's full, you have to exclude the oppressive group. This is like necessary and definitional to a safe space.

Um. And that can be really upsetting for people who threaten safe spaces and don't realize it. So when I first talked about this a couple of years ago, I was actually randomly, but maybe not that randomly discussing, uh, Facebook groups as an example because I, in the 2020 kind of era, Facebook [00:16:00] groups are really popular, especially I think for young Australian women at the time, especially with a lot of popular podcasts that had Facebook groups.

Um, it was a way to connect with other people who were interested in your similar media consumption. Um, but those spaces, while they were safe, you know, they were safe space or like, thought to be a safe space because they were made up of all women maybe didn't account for things like lateral violence or that, um, you know, there are still women in this group who have a social hierarchy, um, who have like more privilege in other groups who maybe aren't aware of that, who can maybe say things that are a bit offensive without realizing, and then it kind of, at the time, that's kind of the first time I was coming across safe spaces and. I, this is, I feel like this is not tangental I am coming back to something just so people are listening. But, um, the issue with that was if for that, for that space to be safe for like the average Australian white woman, it wasn't safe for me, right? Because then I was often put in a position where [00:17:00] somebody would say something a bit racist for that, realizing it, like a lot of casual racism.

And then I would have to be like, Hey, you know, that's not cool. Don't say that. And then they would be like, I thought this was a safe space to be who I am and to express myself and I don't want to be policed like this. And so it's kind of created this difficult conversation now because it's like, well, for this to be safe, for you to express whatever thought you want, it's actually gonna be unsafe for me as the victim of those thoughts.

Um, and so. It's really interesting because I think over the past few years, the term safe space has become really common and also been something that a lot of people wanna implement. People really wanna implement safe spaces for the communities that they're from, from the group that they relate to, from the identity that they share.

Um, and while that's really important, that dichotomy needs to be understood of like in, to be inclusive of one thing, you actually have to be definitionally exclusive of something else. Um, so yeah, to be a safe space, for [00:18:00] example, for people of color, you need to make sure nobody racist is in this group.

And that's kind of what brings us to, back to the part two of that episode I did, which was, uh, discomfort versus unsafety because. When we talk about the right to feel safe, that can often be conflated with the right to not be uncomfortable. So if I call out a woman in the group that I was in and I say, that was a bit racist, or maybe you're not aware of it, but actually what you've said is quite hurtful, and she says, this is not a safe space for me.

Now what we need to consider is, is it actually, like, has it become unsafe for you or has it become uncomfortable for you? And it's really important to reckon between the two of those because when you don't, you really stifle conversation and you stifle change, right? Like, like change is uncomfortable. Uh, if we, no one really likes it, but it has to be done.

Um, and I think that, you know. [00:19:00] When we talk about making places safe for marginalized people, especially when we talk about representation in the workplace or diverse workplaces, um, it literally will not be possible to make those places, uh, safe for marginalized groups unless we kind of push through the discomfort of acknowledging that that means it'll be exclusive of others.

And that's actually okay. Like that's actually okay. Um, because not everybody needs to be in the safe space. Um, 'cause then it just kind of loses its meaning, right? And so there are so many ways, like I've talked about this in terms of racism, but there's actually you, if you listen to my podcast episode, like I kind of discuss it also in the context of queer rights.

'cause there's a lot of, um, academic safe space discourse specifically around queer spaces and LGBT spaces and making them safe spaces, but then also having to contend with the discomfort of telling people who, who are making that place unsafe, that they're making it unsafe, and having to have that confrontation and having to have that conversation.

And, you know, [00:20:00] maybe something that's really relevant to you guys and the work that you do as well is the concept of like, safe schools. You know, there's been a lot of, um, like backlash and criticism to safe schools, uh, and sex education in like primary schools or sex education with children. Um, especially once regarding like non-hetero sexualities because it makes parents who, uh, you know, have their own bigotries to deal with very upset and they feel like, oh, you are, this is actually unsafe for my child.

Like this is not safe for my child. And it's actually not unsafe for your child. Maybe it's uncomfortable, right? Maybe it's uncomfortable for, you have to talk to your kids about sex and sexual health and safe sex. Um, maybe that is really uncomfortable, but no one's actually in any danger, right? Like nobody is actually at any risk, at any physical risk.

There's no danger present, so you're not actually unsafe. And it's important to have a distinction between being [00:21:00] in danger, like actually being threatened and just being uncomfortable. Um. When I talked about it in my second podcast episode, I was talking about, uh, university campuses and discourse around shutting down, you know, conversations around Palestine.

'cause it makes people feel unsafe and it's like, well, does it actually make people feel unsafe because anytime we talk about any kind of colonial power, um, the people who benefit from that colonial power will be uncomfortable. The same way when we talk about, um, you know, land back and aboriginal rights, it can make people feel very uncomfortable because then they have to reckon with the fact that they're on stolen land.

And that can be really disconcerting and can give you feelings of like guilt, right? But that's not unsafe. You're not in any danger. No one's gonna hurt you. You're just uncomfortable. Um, and you know, coming back to like sex education, probably one of the most uncomfortable issues that a lot of parents have to deal with and a lot of schools have to deal [00:22:00] with, and also one of the most sensitive issues.

Um, but yeah, they, like, we cannot be framing these as unsafe . And it's important because what's really unsafe is stifling important conversations that then can lead people to actually being harmed. Like, you know, when we talk about sex education, like.

It's actually really important to have holistic, healthy sex education to avoid harm, to avoid circumstances in which if somebody doesn't know their autonomy, their rights, or understand consent, there can be real harm that's unsafe. The discomfort of talking about consent is far more important than the, uh, the actual unsafety, the actual harm that can happen if we don't.

And so, you know, we could talk about this in literally any framework around marginalized groups, be it race, be it queerness, be it safe sex, um, gender identity, like anything. But I think it's really [00:23:00] important that we stop weaponizing the term safety and the right to be safe because we do all have the right to be safe from harm.

We do not all have the right to avoid conversations that make us uncomfortable and to stifle conversations that we don't like.

Winnie Adamson: Absolutely. Absolutely. I have so many thoughts bouncing now in my head. Um, it did make me think of a term I've heard recently, um, at a symposium was brave spaces , and the space of like, of course the safe safety, but also like sometimes like, like some of those examples you gave there, like jumping in and talking and creating spaces where it is okay to feel uncomfortable, like if we're having brave and difficult conversations is also really important too.

Um, and you know, we know like, thinking about, consent education coming into schools, like, the stats and the evidence shows us [00:24:00] that one of four kids experience child sexual abuse.

And they're learning about it in a space that is unsafe. They're learning about it somewhere in harm. And so the least we can do is actually bring that into a safe school environment with trusted teachers, trusted adults, and teach kids in a space where they can learn, so then they can avoid that in the future.

And I think the same goes for so many other places too.

Soaliha Iqbal: I actually just wanted to, if I could just bounce off really quickly something you said. Yeah. Go. Um, I, yeah. The idea of brave spaces is really cool, especially because I do think maybe this is very like chronically online, gen Z of me as well, but I do think there is a real fear in this, in this particular like, social context of being wrong, of saying the wrong thing, of having a bad take.

Um, and like of cancel culture, right? Especially with digital [00:25:00] footprints and things, being able to be taken out of context and going viral. Like, I think people are really scared of having uncomfortable conversations partially because being wrong actually has consequences, right? Like if you have a bad take and you make a TikTok about it, or you post, you know, a substack piece or whatever, and the wrong people see it like you are getting yelled at by people online, you are in trouble. Um, and I think at a time where we really moralize intellect and to be right is to be moral and to be wrong, is to be immoral. Like that has a lot of consequences on the way you feel about yourself and where you stand in society. And I think it's a problem, like I find as well, just even in the spaces that I exist online, you know, in like largely kind of political spaces where people like talk a lot about things that they wanna solve in the world and issues that they come across and patterns that they come across. Like, everyone's gonna be wrong sometimes. I mean, I'm sure this, I, when I [00:26:00] said that podcast, I was like 21. Like I'm sure that there are things I have said then that I know a lot better about now.

Um, and to be able to be wrong is like, should be okay. We should be able to make mistakes and be wrong. And it's actually quite brave to like try and have a stance and then be wrong and then correct it and move on. Um, but I think that it's becoming a lot harder when we don't really give each other the grace to learn right from our mistakes.

Like, it's okay to be correct and then to be like, damn, I didn't see it that way. My bad, bad take, taking it back, moving on. Like, we should just be able to do that, but we can't because I think especially in the year of like a digital footprint. That is like a bit complicated. Um, but yeah, that's like where the idea of a, a brave space, like I've never heard of that, but that sounds really cool because it's like, it gives people the opportunity to come into a space and just like talk and work it out and then leave without the stigma of having like needed to be corrected.

Um, I feel like yeah, a lot of us could be better at recognizing that [00:27:00] it's okay if people like don't know something and are wrong as long as like we all have grace when it comes to like accepting we're wrong and also being forgiving to other people who are wrong and just like moving on, like having a good conversation, having a good communication, and then just like moving on with our lives.

Um, so yeah, just say I love the idea of a brave space. I hope more people like, feel like they can have productive conversations that aren't like debates, but are just like talking.

Winnie Adamson: Definitely. And really building empathy. Yeah, I think that's also what it comes down to when we're teaching people and kids early on about so many of these uncomfortable topics, it's building a place of empathy and building that there's so many different perspectives, so many different understandings of the world, how we've grown up.

Um, and I think that's really empowering too. And definitely to be able to, to be wrong I think is really important because that's how we learn often. Um, and also the space is forever [00:28:00] changing. You know, what you may have said, like when you were 21 back in those podcasts is already evolved. 'cause there's more people, more research, more evidence, more cultural change.

Um, sometimes I think it's really powerful to look back at that, you know, I thinking of, um, some of our episodes, we have always have a few themes. We try to really keep a. Um, running through our podcast like, um, Trans Health is definitely a theme we've covered every season and if you think back to our first season and we talked with Trans Hub, even you look at some of the language we use there are so different to how we do now.

And that was like three years ago. So I think it's actually kind of really, um, inspiring too because it's a space that's ever evolving and that's exciting. Um, i'm gonna jump us into talking about diversity, inclusion and representation. Bouncing off that discomfort. I think, you know, [00:29:00] it upholds those inequalities and power systems a lot of the time when we're talking about people not being able to engage in these conversations.

Um, so exploring diversity, inclusion and representation, I think within broader like projects, campaigns, but even the workplace as well, . And when we first chatted, um, in the direction of this podcast episode. Um, we talked, you talked about the forefront of the conversation really starting in 2020 after the George Floyd protests in the US

And then this has really shaped representation and perspectives of things like media campaigns, commercials, and TV series, et cetera. And I thought, um, and of course representation across all mediums is so incredibly important. But what is authentic representation and meaningful representation really look like?

I'd like to chat about this. I think five years on from that movement in 2020. Um, where is our conversation now? It's one that we really need [00:30:00] to be having. And I think moving beyond just ticking that diversity representation box, how do we move away from that tokenistic inclusion and towards these cultural shifts that really need to happen?

Soaliha Iqbal: Yeah, I think, um, yeah, I think the push to have diversity in the way that we currently view it and see it is definitely been really escalated after 2020 I, maybe even like 2014 with the, um, where the Black Lives Matter movement was really taking off online as well. Like I was in high school at the time, um, when Michael Brown was shot.

Um, but I feel like after that there was a big conversation about representation, politics, which kind of like. I wasn't in the workplace yet, so I can't really speak to what it was like in the workplace, but it was definitely like a lot of people my age, I was probably like, what, 15, 16 at the time. And there was definitely, um, a lot of conversations happening about race that we kind of hadn't really happened had before at all.

And then I think 2020 with George Floyd being killed by police. [00:31:00] Um, and that was a real reckoning, I think, in Australia. I had just started to work in media at the time and I was literally seeing like editors publish long pieces about how like they're actually, uh, realizing that they haven't had enough, um, diverse voices in like their publications or there are magazines and like they, there's something they're gonna change.

They've like, their eyes have opened, they see it now, they see racism now. I was like, kind of wish I hadn't taken this, but Okay. But yeah, I like, there was a real like, cultural shift happening. Um, you know, we had all the Australia, all the black tiles and that kind of stuff. Uh, but then it's really interesting because I think we have seen an increase in a real effort to like pass the mic. You know, we've seen an effort in workplaces, social media profiles, even like TV commercials, ad banners, billboards, whatever, to like actively try and include people that would [00:32:00] ordinarily not have a voice in this space. You know, if that means hiring more diverse staff or if that means if you have a large social media platform to like have somebody else take over for a day and post on your stories.

I think that's like kind of a pass the mic became popularized. Um, it's been really good. I think like, I think it's exciting that there has been this awakening, um, and that there has been this consciousness, especially I think in Australia, which is, for lack of better word, a little bit behind when it comes to race representation and race conversations in like western countries, like the US and the UK

I feel like sometimes in Australia you like literally have to like, we're not even talking about whether racism is like good or bad. We're talking about whether it even exists. Like the conversation can be so entry level sometimes where you can't even get to like the effects of racism where they come from, the context, the pervasive ways it like kind of worms its way into your life. 'cause you [00:33:00] are, you are, we're still at the point of even proving that it even exists. Um, which is something our, you really come across working in media because we have such tight defamation laws as well. So even just reporting on racism is really, really hard.

Um, and it's very hard to get news agencies to back you when you talk about it as well because we have quite a unique context around the way we frame these issues and the laws around them. Um, but that being said, while it's un undoubtedly really great that we've seen this kind of shift, uh, and we've like, I've definitely noticed an increase in, um, diverse voices in media.

I've noticed it in ads. I've noticed people I work for with, or have, you know, previously worked for really making the effort to reach out to the right voices when they want commentary on an issue. And I think that's really beautiful. Um, but it's also really important that when we have representation in the workplace, it's not just cosmetic.

Um, and it's not just front facing, but it's structural [00:34:00] because I think that without like structural changes, representation can very quickly become tokenistic. So. Yeah, I think, I think representation as it currently exists lays the groundwork for structural change, but we actually like need that structural change to have any real movement and to have, um, an actually safe, diverse workplace or social media campaign or like whatever the project is.

Um, and when we ignore implementing those structural changes or when we forget to or when we don't know to representation, um, could sometimes even be harmful, which I feel like a lot of people might be surprised by a statement like that, like representation can be bad or like maybe you've come across like, not all representation is good representation.

Um, but I think that's something really worth digging into because. I guess maybe we can talk about like what is the difference between like good representation and like tokenistic representation? [00:35:00] I think that I would see good representation and good kind of inclusive, diverse work would be not just to have like a person of color or like a person of a marginalized identity involved in a project or consulted in a project, but also to have it be more than just, can I get a comment from you or can I get you to pose in this photo?

I want your face in my ad banner, but like, who's making the decisions? Who's behind the camera? Who, like, I think at every level of production there needs to be voices that are relevant to the work that you're doing. And , if that's like, if we're talking about diversity representation, then that's like not just having a person of color in front of the camera, but also behind it.

Right? Um, and when places don't do that, it can be really obvious. I think a great example, kind of bit of a full circle moment is reality tv. Um, you guys, if anybody here watches like Love Island, you've probably come across a lot of discourse lately on [00:36:00] like safe spaces. Um, I don't, but I am tapped into the conversation 'cause it's my job so I don't watch it, but I'm aware of it.

Uh, and there was a lot of conversation around a woman on Love Island who was from a particular racialized background who was kind of paired with somebody who had quite allegedly had quite racist beliefs about that background. Um, and there was a lot of upset viewers who felt like she was put in a position where she had been opened up to like really hostile backlash because of her race.

And it kind of opened up the question of like, who's putting her in this position? Why is she here? And while I can't speak for Love Island, 'cause I don't really watch it, that's like literally what I was writing about with the Bachelor, how many years ago, like five years ago, where a female contestant who was of South Asian background was verbally abused by a white contestant who mocked her name, her like ethnic name.

And there was other kind of like [00:37:00] racialized commentary, like really racially charged, um, behavior happening. And I remember thinking at the time like, how the hell is this allowed? Like I get that the point of reality TV is to see like messy people fight each other and we all like laugh. I think it's funny, but also like this is racist.

Like this person's being racist. Why has no producer stepped in and why is this being put out on our TV for entertainment? I just feel like if people who experienced that kind of racism were involved in the production of this episode, somebody would've thought to be like, hang on guys, like this is not cool.

And you know, um. There are a lot of celebrities over many years who have come out and talked about like marginalized celebrities, especially I think in particular in like Hollywood, like black celebrities and also some women celebrities, especially at the intersection of both of those identities have talked about feeling, you know, really marginalized at their workplace, the set of their film or whatever it is.

Um, because while they're there as a lead and they're there, and this should be like a [00:38:00] win for representation, where they were working was really hostile because nobody thought to change the structural elements of this place that have made it historically hostile to people like us. So then when we entered these workplaces, it kind of sucks.

Um, and I know I'm being like, kind of vague. I'm not really giving specific examples. Again, it's kind of hard to give specific examples of this 'cause I'm not trying to like call out anyone, but, you know, if a historically white company in Australian media decides that it's gonna change and it hires an all person of color staff, that's great, but they still have to deal with the board who are all white. They still have to deal with the policies that were written by white people. They still have to deal with like an entire environment that was made without them in consideration. An example is like when I've worked places and there isn't a prayer room, right?

And I'm like, I'm here for my like insight into being a Muslim hijabi woman. And there isn't even like, a prayer room for me, um, like in [00:39:00] what way are you actually accommodating me aside from just like using me as an opinion machine. And so it's really important that we see when we want to make a space diverse or, or a project diverse, that it's not just about like hiring a young person of color to be the face of this and to be representation on screen, but to make sure they are safe.

To make sure they are happy. Like, I don't wanna sacrifice a person of color for the sake of representation. I don't wanna like sacrifice them to the white supremacist machine so that I get to have somebody on TV who looks like me. I don't want that. I actually want them to be happy. I want them to be safe.

I want them to feel like they can be themselves in that environment and that will actually attract other people who wouldn't be like, oh, well I've heard really good things about this place 'cause so and so works there. And they said that they were really great to her and they were really accommodating of her and they really took her opinion, um, into consideration and.

I think that's the other one as well. Like with [00:40:00] tokenism, part of how I would define that is wanting somebody for the cosmetic purposes of them being like a diversifying force in whatever project it is, but then not listening to their feedback and not being open to their criticism. Um, like people of color are people, they are also in some ways a resource, like they have lived experience and they can share that lived experience with you.

And if you hear them criticize something and you feel uncomfortable, not unsafe, uncomfortable, like don't shut it down. Listen to them. Take that feedback on like make this project something that is worth having, that is meaningful, that is inclusive of the voices you're trying to include and don't just like put people on stage, but actually like, make sure the environment around them caters to them. I think that the way that I would love to see representation happen is through consultation, um, [00:41:00] through regularly checking in to actively shutting down hostile forces as well. Like I think people find it really hard to speak up when something happens in, you know, a workplace or in a project that they're part of, or a campaign where maybe there's been like a microaggression.

Maybe someone has said something that's kind of like not very nice or that is like kind of racially loaded or like loaded with some other kind of bigotry . If your place is really dedicated to diversity, then you would be open to that kind of feedback and willing to do something about it.

One of the times I have felt most supported in a workplace was when somebody in the workplace said something that was pretty off color and I spoke to a superior and I was like, Hey, I'm not trying to get this person in trouble, but like, it really upsets me that not only was this said, but that nobody reacted.

Like I felt crazy. I felt like I was the only person that could see that this was a problem and it makes me feel like an alien in this space. And it makes me feel like I don't [00:42:00] belong here because I'm the only person that seems to have a problem with this. And then that boss bless them, was like. That's not okay.

I will deal with this. And also did it make it my job to fix it? Which is the other thing, like a lot of people of color are hired to fix the diversity problem. She was like, no, it's not your job to fix it. I'm glad you told me. I'm gonna go deal with that. I'm gonna talk to people. I'm gonna make it clear.

I'm gonna put them through a cultural sensitivity training program. Like I'm gonna deal with it. I'm just so glad you told me about it. That's what I wanna see in a workplace. I wanna, I don't expect workplaces to be perfect, but I expect them to be open to me when I mention that they're not perfect. I expect them to care about what I think and to make me feel supported and to believe me as well.

Like to believe me when I say that something's not okay or something makes me feel like this space is hostile or like, you know something. You might be like, it's not that deep, but I'm like, well it is and I need you to believe me. Right. So, yeah, like in a way they're not even really specific to race.

Like, [00:43:00] just like believe people when they tell you something is wrong, believe them when they say that something is hostile or racially loaded, even if you haven't really seen it that way before. Like empathize and don't make it their problem to fix everything. Like that's not their job.

Winnie Adamson: Yeah, absolutely. I mean that's why you have, um, people and culture a part of workplaces, right?

Yeah. Um, thank you for sharing that. And I think it's really, um, it just makes me think also about co-design and I think co-design can be like a bit of a tick box to like, oh, I got some feedback that's co-design. It's like, well, no, not really. Which a few episodes of On The Couch we have talking about this as well. Um, one with Laura Crozier from YACVic Um, and there was a discussion around youth-led designs for young people around consent and relationships.

So go back and give that a listen as well if you get a chance. Um, [00:44:00] I'd like to think now more about like practically, um, for our listeners, you know, who predominantly our audience are professionals working within the community designing programs and campaigns, and how can we like more practically show up and be authentic in the workplace, in our projects.

Soaliha Iqbal: I think the first is to make an effort to develop relationships with people from diverse backgrounds. Like don't just call in indigenous people in NAIDOC week. Like actually, like have ongoing relationships with the people, um, that you think have valuable perspectives and contributions to what you're doing to respect their opinions, to pay them for their expertise if you can.

I know sometimes that can be really hard, especially when you don't have funding, but to not like, treat people as like wells that you can keep, you know, taking from, like don't just take all the time, like give as well, um, and to listen believe people I know one person can't fix the system, right?

Like I know that it's not an [00:45:00] individual's fault, and I know that especially in like the workplace, like you're not gonna single-handedly fix racism. You're not gonna single-handedly change institutionalized white supremacy. Like, like I totally get that and I don't expect that of anybody. But I think that you can to, you can push the needle.

You can't push the needle by including, and uplifting certain voices and of including people not just in like decision making processes, but in like everything as well. Like one of the things I kind of wish I would see more in my career is people just wanting me to comment on stuff that is unrelated to race.

I love talking about race to get me wrong, and that is kind of my beat and my niche, but also it still implies in othering in a way that like, what about my commentary on just like my favorite TV show that is unrelated to all of this, like normalizing voices of the communities we're talking about in all spaces, not just in their spaces.

Like if we just normalize conversations about race as like in [00:46:00] this one political column, it's still considered, um, mutually exclusive to everything else and not something that is like part of our lives all the time. Um, so I think that like, I think to be fair, I'm seeing a lot of that lately, which is really nice.

Like I am seeing a lot of brands include people of color, just like. And they're just normal people in the ad campaign. They're not here for like, to show that like this is a thing that is specific to this community. They just exist as like people who live in Australia of all different backgrounds and they're just people.

And that's really nice too. 'cause I think that's kind of a hard line to balance between making sure you consult people of color, but also not using them as like an endless resource, um, like humanizing them. Um, but yeah, I really think a lot of it like to just practice it in your own life is like earnestness and like genuine attempts to really, like, at the end of the day, center the experience of the people you wanna include and listen to them regardless of what that feedback is. Like. [00:47:00] If you're getting really good feedback, that's great. Love that for you, if you're getting feedback that's maybe like, oh, I kind of felt like this, this, and this.

Like, listen, listen, implement. Um, there are also people whose whole job is like cultural sensitivity. Reach out to those people, if you don't wanna, um, like tokenize somebody or, or put somebody in the awkward position of having to educate you when that's not really their job. Well, good thing that that is actually the job of some people reach out to them.

I actually have, like, I've had people DM me that I like not friends with and be like, Hey, can you read over my script and just make sure that it's like not problematic and I'm like, that's a whole job. I'm a writer. Like you can, you could pay me to edit it and I would do it, but you can't just like slide into my dms and ask me to do it like free labor because you respect my opinion.

Like that's not how it works. Actually put value on people's words, right? Like I think money is honestly just a big one as well. A lot of people of color in particular, in particular from a lot of marginalities, do work for free. A lot of the work I [00:48:00] do is for free, like a lot. I don't even charge for my podcast.

All of that is for free. I use that out of my own pocket because like it's very hard to make money on that beat. It's, and it's unsustainable to put it, quite frankly. Um, but we do it because we care and we need these conversations to happen and we know they're not really happening elsewhere. Like, make it sustainable for people to do this kind of work.

Make it sustainable for people to help you improve the projects you work on and to give their insight because they'll wanna do it then, you know, like make it worth both of your time and mutually beneficial.

Winnie Adamson: Yeah, definitely. Thanks. Thanks for that. I think, um, it is a hard one, especially that money aspect and you know, you do hear it and see it, a lot of, a lot of people like, we're so passionate that we can end up doing all of this work that's really incredible and not getting that recognition or being really seen and valued because, you know, we do live in a society where we need money to.

[00:49:00] Yeah. It's unfortunate. Um, I know from your podcast and obviously behind you, your bookshelf, that you are very much an avid reader and we love to finish, our episodes and we can with, um, what's influencing you at the moment. And, you know, we often read things and we can take all of this context into our work , but also outside of that as well informs who we are.

Um, so what are you reading, listening to and what's inspiring you at the moment?

Soaliha Iqbal: Um, I'm reading a lot lately. What am I reading? I'll talk about maybe some books that I think everybody should read. Um, I recently, I say recently, I think I read this a year ago, but it feels recent because I think about it like literally every day.

Um, I Translations by Jumaana Abdu, I think she won the Stella Prize actually for that novel recently. Um, one of the best books I have ever read. I was like, if [00:50:00] I ever write a fiction book? I can only hope to write as beautifully as this. It's set in, um, regional New South Wales and it follows a Palestinian woman, I think she's maybe mixed actually, but with some Palestinian background woman and her daughter as they move to regional New South Wales and try to start kind of a new life and a new community and the, um, you know, social tensions that come with that.

And it's kind of got a backdrop of like scary, like climate change bushfire vibes, but it is just so beautifully written. It's really philosophical. I the author you Jumaana Abdu is a like full-time doctor. I have no idea how she managed to have time to write this book and then write it so beautifully. It's pretty amazing.

It's like one of my favorite books ever of all time. And now that it's won the Stellar Prize, I feel like extremely vindicated. 'cause I read it when I had a proof and I like, I knew this was something special. So if anybody is looking for a new book to read, please read Translations by [00:51:00] Jumaana Abdu. And I also recently read, um, another Sydney author, funnily enough, I recently read Learned Behaviors by Zeynab Gamieldien, which is set in Western Sydney.

Um, and it's kind of about about. I mean, in a way I think the genre is technically a crime thriller. I just, it feels a bit too crass to call it that 'cause it's like far more sophisticated and restrained than what I would expect from a crime thriller. And it's kind of about like code switching and the different kind of lives you can live as somebody who is from Western Sydney and then kind of moves into like more North Sydney professional circles and like the way you have to stifle parts of yourself to fit into these communities. And, and this is all kind of the backdrop to like a, like murder mystery, but it's a really great novel. I literally read it, I think in like 1.5 sittings and I really resonated with it because it talks about racism, but not in the overt ways that I think we're used to talking about [00:52:00] racism.

It's in the really little things that we often don't even know how to articulate. Like there's this line, I'm actually gonna be interviewing this author as well in like two weeks. It's all I can think about and talk about. Um, I reached out to her, I was like, I need to interview for this story I don't care when I don't care how, like, please just talk to me. I need your insight. Um, but there's this really great moment in the book where the lead character who grew up in Western Sydney like me, and then moved away like me, um, and worked in law in North Sydney. Um, his friends were all kind of like wealthy North Sydney types and.

He has a moment of reflection where he realizes he occupies the role of an informant. So they love to like, ask him questions about what it's like living in Western Sydney. And he kind of maybe overplays some of the like, um, so it's like a little bit orientalizing, right? Of like Western Sydney and so ethnic and sometimes there's gangs and like, you know, really kind of acts as like this [00:53:00] door for others to look into this, but it's a little bit dramatized and it's a great, like, I read that and I was like, this is something I have never articulated or realized that sometimes I do.

Like I have in the past been guilty of, um, and it's like a normal survival tactic for anybody in a position like that where you come from a background that's, you know, marginalized by both class and race, and then you have a bit of class mobility and move into circles of people who have never had that experience and you kind of become their doorway, which sounds fine and it sounds like really, you know, like, oh, like you're teaching them about your people, but you kind of end up helping them look at your background from this really orientalist gaze is like up looking down. And I just felt like that was such a clear eye description of something that I had never thought about and I like literally can't stop thinking about it.

So everybody should read Learned Behaviors. I think it just came out a couple of days [00:54:00] ago. Um, and I really loved it. So some, those are two good fictional books that I think will be really resonant for a lot of people and for the people it doesn't resonate with. I think it may be a little uncomfortable, but in a good way.

Good. Un uncomfortable, not unsafe. Just really good in a comfortable way.

Winnie Adamson: Yes. Great way to leave people inspired, I think. Um, those books sound great and we'll definitely, wanna give them a read and pop them on our, What We're Reading library, um, which you can find on our website full of lots of different books covering many topics.

But, um, yeah, so thanks so much for sharing that and thank you so much for being here today. It has been incredible and a really eye-opening discussion.

I feel like all of this stuff really intersects is there anything final for our listeners that you'd like to leave them with a, a few takeaway thoughts after some of those chats we've had?

Soaliha Iqbal: Yeah, I think one thing I'd like to say, 'cause I know [00:55:00] that race in particular and like diversity and inclusion can be really touchy, a really touchy subject even with the most well-intentioned people because like I said before, people are scared of being wrong. Nobody wants to be accidentally racist, nobody wants to like accidentally tokenize you.

And there can be a lot of awkwardness and like walking on eggshells and like, oh, I don't know if I should reach out to this person. What if they think I'm just trying to mind them for free labor? Um, I totally, totally understand that. In fact, I feel like I understand it more than most people. 'cause I am a journalist who has to DM people and ask them to talk to me for free.

So I get it. I totally get how much that can suck. Um, but I really think that like, at the end of the day. Go for it and just be earnest. Like, just be real. I think a lot of people appreciate that. A lot of people want to make a difference at the end of the day. And just like have, like be in good faith with people and try your hardest.

I don't expect perfection from anyone. I don't expect people, to single handedly change the [00:56:00] system that undervalues us, doesn't pay us. Like I don't expect somebody to just like pay me a thousand dollars to just work when they don't have it. Like I get it. I'm realistic. And I think a lot of people of color are realistic and if anything, standards are a bit low.

So I feel like don't be afraid of us. Like I think there can be a lot of fear around like talking about race and things because you don't wanna be like in trouble for saying the wrong thing. Don't be scared of us. Like we all have the same goal and we all are working through the same thing together and we can only do that collaboratively.

So just be collaborative.

Winnie Adamson: thanks for listening to On The Couch. We create this podcast because we are allies in actively challenging discrimination, microaggressions and exclusionary behaviors.

Maddy Stratten: We wanna create spaces where people feel safe to share their thoughts, knowing that they'll be heard and respected. Such an environment fosters collaboration, innovation, and contributes to a more inclusive society.

Winnie Adamson: Follow us on your favorite podcast platform. That way you will receive every new episode when it's [00:57:00] released. You can also help us grow the podcast by giving us a rating and leaving us a review.

Maddy Stratten: Connect with us on Instagram and Facebook, and share on the couch with your friends, colleagues, and family.

Winnie Adamson: On The Couch is made by the team at Caddyshack Project.

Until next time, peace, love, and protection.