On The Couch with Jennifer Power Transcript

[00:00:00] Jennifer Farinella: Hello, and welcome to an episode of On The Couch, where we collaborate with experts, practitioners, authors, advocates, and influencers to explore current social themes, sex positive topics, and share stories and insights that matter. This podcast was recorded on Aboriginal country. We Acknowledge the traditional custodians of the lands that were never seeded on which we live, work, and record upon.

We pay our respects to elders past and present, and to those who may be visiting our website or listening to our podcasts. Today while listening, we encourage you to practice good self-care. Check the show notes for content, details, and references. Wherever you are, whatever you're doing, enjoy this episode of On The Couch.

[00:00:47] Naomi Viret: I'm Naomi Viret a Health Promotion Officer with Caddyshack Project. Joined today by Jennifer Power, Professor of research, and is a sociologist who specializes in research related to sexuality and sexual health.

Her work in the area of sexual health is focused on digital sexual literacy, sexual health promotion and education with young people, particularly looking at wellbeing among people living with HIV. I'm really looking forward to our discussions today, especially to hear about young people and their current attitudes towards sex and sexual practices.

And I know you have a lot of information to share with us, so really looking forward to that. But before we do, we've, we've started to explore people's fields of existence and coordinates of belonging. This is introduced to us by Leah from Co Culture Communications and it demonstrates that we belong to a field of existence, that there are many stories that we have been told or where we place ourselves, that may be a geographical placement or based on where our ancestors have existed, lands that are under our feet or places that we stand and all of these things come together to make who it is that we are today in this very moment.

So, Jen, I'd love to get started with your story. How do you locate yourself? What are your coordinates of being.

[00:02:13] Jennifer Power: Uh, yeah, thanks, Naomi. Um, I spent a while thinking about how I should respond to that.

I know a lot of people speak kind of personally about their ancestral or ethnic background or, you know, how they've come to where they are, but I thought actually it might make the most sense to talk a little bit about how I've landed in the job that I'm in. I think it's relevant because my, how I landed in this job here at ARCSHS which is what we call the Australian Research Centre and Sex Health and Society at La Trobe, um, is kind of a combination of both.

My academic research background and kind of a commitment to activism in a way. So back in the 90s, I was a youth worker and I was working on a safe sex education program for young people experiencing homelessness. So we did a lot of workshops in youth residential care services predominantly and across the youth sector.

So through that, I'd sort of had an interest in HIV prevention, although I'd been around that space. for quite a while in different roles. Um, but I was also quite involved with like left politics, like activism at the time. So I had this sort of general interest in what made the world change, you know, how did, how does change actually happen?

And that, you know, sort of started from a broad left Marxist socialist approach to the world, but just to sort of trying to understand it more on a, on a micro level, I guess, like, you know, what actually creates a bit of cultural change, what makes people see things differently. So that came together for me Yeah.

Um, You know, HIV and activism collided when I went back to uni to do a PhD and picked a topic related to the impact of community based HIV activism. So I really looked at what, what that looked like, where that came from, why that was as successful as it was, um, who was involved in that. How those people came to be, and then what changed because of that?

Because there was some really profound, like, really profound changes that happened, I think, because of HIV activism, you know, relating to the ways in which we understand health research. Number one, the ways in which we do health research, the ways in which we do health promotion, the ways in which we bring community development and politics into health promotion.

So much of that, I think, has come from HIV activism. Like, there are little things too, like even in the NHMRC, there wasn't people with lived experience on ethics committees before HIV activists came along and said, Oh, hang on, lot of the people involved in that really did change the world. And so I was sort of trying to write about how that happened and what were the cultural things that came along with that.

And also just other things like there wasn't space for queer young people before HIV in many ways. It's like the HIV kind of escalated that and there was this whole bunch of community activism, you know, ready to pick that up in a way. And I think that's been carried forward. So, Yeah, they all sort of intersected, I guess, their interest in activism and interest in HIV landed in a research job that I've kind of taken forward with both of those in hand.

[00:05:15] Naomi Viret: I love it. Thank you so much for sharing that Jen. And you know, it really reminds me in terms of that activism and how important it's been. And, you know, while it's been 30, 40 years now, it still feels quite.

Um, recent and the work that we're still doing in this space, and we'll touch more on that later in our discussion. So hold that thought bubble of activism and the HIV space. But, you know, as health promotion officers, we are talking about that harm minimization approach a lot as well, as opposed to zero tolerance, which was taken on in some other countries.

And you reflecting on that now has just reminded me so much of that. Thank you. Um, you kind of have touched on, this next question, but, um, as you've mentioned, you're currently leading the sexual health research program that is at ARCSHS the Australian Research Centre in Sex, Health and Society.

And I think from a research perspective, you probably have one of the coolest research titles, out there. It takes me back to a time when I was studying at university and I chose a subject called sex, drugs and rock and roll, thinking not only is this a really cool topic, but surely it's one that's impossible to fail.

And I think that you've essentially taken this university topic and turned it into a career in research of sexuality, sexual health and HIV. So I personally think you have the coolest research topic. Um, so you've mentioned that you were in youth work and it sort of entered into that space, particularly around HIV.

Is there anything else that you'd like to say about getting into that research career? Was that what you always imagined doing?

[00:06:41] Jennifer Power: Yes and no. Like, I actually, um, without wanting to make it sound too Pollyannary when I was, I did a diploma in youth work at TAFE. Um, in Sydney, and, um, when I was doing that, I did a subject where we looked at health promotion and I did this assignment on young people and condom use and I found this report that had been written by, uh, the precursor to ARCSHS which is one of the National HIV Social Research Centers and I, that was the time I looked at that and thought, Oh, I'd really like to do that.

I'd like to work there. I'd like to do that research. So it wasn't like I had that in my head. I'm going to work there, but there was something in there. Like, I was sort of aware of this, the social research that was happening around HIV back then and still, but particularly back then and was kind of, I guess orienting towards it, but my research career. I, um, when I moved to Melbourne, I sent my CV around trying to get work teaching. And it was picked up by this guy called Chris Fox. So you might know , he works at Sydney uni in their sexology, sexual health program and he's a practicing sexologist.

He is the only person that replied to me. So he gave me a job, teaching for him at Melbourne Uni. And then he also, he was doing his PhD here at ARCSHS so he offered to take my CV to ARCSHS um, for anyone who needed to employ a research assistant. And from there, it was picked up by Ruth McNair, who's this amazing GP, um, she's done a heap of research. Really looking at LGBT people's health over the years. She wasn't at ARCSHS but she employed me to work with her, on this program looking at cervical cancer screening or, or pap smears as we called them then, among LBQ women. Um, and from that I met Marian Pitts who was the director of ARCSHS and, and, and ended up working on the HIV future study.

So I, I've, I still work with Chris and Ruth and often say to them, oh, I just, I credit my whole career to you. So it was a little bit of orienting towards that, but just finding my way in and, and I got lucky. I think in this career.

[00:08:46] Naomi Viret: So good. And we're so grateful that you did because your contributions to the research in this space like it does impact the work that we're even doing here in New South Wales, Illawarra Shoalhaven daily, and no doubt for many listeners online today.

So thank you for falling into the space. I sometimes say that I feel, yes. Sexual health finds us. We don't find it. If that makes sense. It sort of just falls into our lap and then we're like, oh, this is such a great career choice. . Jen, when we talk about research, we find it incredibly fascinating, um, you know, what research shows us, but we also talk about the fact that the data that is presented is numbers, right?

And those numbers represent actual people. Um, and so can I ask how you are able to practice self care in the research space? Um, whilst also, I guess, not becoming desensitized to the information and the data that you're exposed to?

[00:09:37] Jennifer Power: Yeah. Again I spent a bit of time thinking about that because, like, I don't, you know, you know, we have some formal processes.

So, for example, I was working on a project related to LGBT people's experiences of conversion practices, and so that was quite traumatizing. There was a lot of people on that team who had lived experience. So we had very formal processes for trauma informed research practice, um, that were built into that project.

So there's definitely things like that that happen, but for me, the thing that I always think about is, um, there was a period where I was doing work on this project, looking at, uh, well being among queer parents. So predominantly at that point, we were looking at same sex parenthood, couples who have children, um, and I had children at the time as a queer parent, and one of the things I was just continually asked to respond to were questions about whether the kids were okay.

Like, it was the one thing people always asked me. I got phone calls about it. I was asked to comment in the media all the time about whether the kids were okay. And I guess, for me, that's confronting, but it also, to respond well and academically, I really had to sit with those critiques. I had to give them space, I had to give them time, I had to give it respect, think it through, argue it carefully.

So I spent a lot of time kind of absorbed in the critiques of me as a parent. And at the time as well, I was a recently separated parent. So I had all the kind of critiques of whether the kids are going to be okay because you're queer, and whether the kids are going to be okay because they've been through a separation.

So it was kind of intense. Um, and it was sort of a weird position to be in to have to constantly publicly explain my life, but the position that I took was to be quite transparent about myself within that I didn't try and be some sort of distance or neutral observer as an academic. I was, you know, for many reasons to do with sort of, uh, transparency and rigor and self reflective research and so forth.

I was quite upfront about that and was also very consciously, I very consciously talked about how you can really fall into shame and fear when you, when you're a parent or a queer person or, you know, in many situations, partly because I was so mindful that they were narratives I wasn't seeing anywhere.

I wasn't seeing queer parents talk about separation at that time. I wasn't seeing queer parents really talking about, you know, the sort of fear and shame that you can pick up if you take on those narratives or because those narratives are around, you know, it's quite intense. So, for me, in a weird way, the self care came from this feeling of exposure, like saying, talking about that feeling of shame, which made me feel quite vulnerable and still does.

I can feel myself kind of even talking about it. But there is a weird sort of empowerment for want of a better word, in, in being quite open about that vulnerability. And so for me that was a bit of the self-care, I guess a little bit of a therapeutic, uh, catharsis as part of the way I approach that research.

 And I guess that's a slight activist stance as well. You know, if I'm gonna be commenting on this, I'm gonna do it in a way that is me that I think will be meaningful for people reading it.

[00:12:51] Naomi Viret: Meaningful and heard, and I think that you, um, you know, you become that peer, and thanks for sharing that with us, because, you know, it is such a vulnerable story, but you become that person where others go, I'm not alone in this.

There are other people out there like me, and, you know, we're often talking that, um, LGBTQI plus space around those similarities and differences and it's like, but we don't ask heterosexual parents if their kids are okay.

[00:13:15] Jennifer Power: Really don't, and you know, people asking that question really don't care if the kids are okay, that's not the aim of the question and we need to acknowledge that, you know, and there's, when we go into this thing about whether the kids are okay, we're talking micro differences in these psychometric measures.

It's just ridiculous. It is a silly question.

[00:13:34] Naomi Viret: It is. But thank you so much for sharing that vulnerability. I have no doubt that even just that conversation alone is going to make a difference to people. So, thank you for that. With so many research projects under your belt, I suppose this is almost going to be like asking, do you have a favorite child?

But do you have a favorite project that you've worked on over the years? What's top of the list?

[00:13:55] Jennifer Power: Oh, look, I'm currently working on the Secondary Students And Sexual Health Survey, which I mean, I don't know if that's my favorite because it's just the one in my head at the moment, but that study, um, like nothing else.

It's since I've been working on that, the response I get from people in the sector, mostly to a lesser extent, young people, although there are certainly young people who are also kind of active in the sector who are aware and have spoken to me about that study, but it's, it's just got such a good response.

People use it, they love it, they talk about it, they asked me about it. I literally have had people rushing up to me at conferences saying, Oh, my God, we just wanted to talk to you because we use that study all the time. And when's the next one? And, you know, I've never been involved in a piece of research that's obviously so valued actually. So, for that reason, I think I'd have to say the SSASH study. And it's a good study. Like, you know, in large part, I think the reason it's so well used and well loved is because, it's, it's not a lot like it, which again, I don't know if I was entirely cognisant of before I worked on that study, I felt like there would be a lot of research on young people and sex and condoms and sexual health, but actually for that age group, that 14 to 18 year school aged group of young people, very little research because it's it's hard to do.

It's politically sensitive. Funders don't like it. Researchers tend to back away from it and stick with people aged over 18. So I think there's a reason why that study is so well used. It's a little bit one of its kind.

[00:15:37] Naomi Viret: Yeah, and I think you've just touched on a point that I hadn't really thought about in terms of the politics around it, but I imagine that the ethics behind that research would be quite involved.

Is that right?

[00:15:48] Jennifer Power: Uh, yeah, it can be. So we currently, we use to run that study in school. So that's the study that's been running since 1992. Um, 

That originated in 1992. Um, and it was at that point, it was really the height. it was pre HIV antiretroviral treatment, so it was pre modern ART. So there was no treatment for HIV. Early 90s people still thought there'd be a second wave of HIV and that that would affect heterosexual young people.

So there was a lot of fear around young people and HIV, um, and a lot of motivation for investing in prevention. So I've said before at various things, in a weird way, I think that that moment in the early 90s, um, one, there was a lot of investment in, in a new approach to sex education in Australian schools, and it allowed sex education to step out of the culture wars a little bit at that time. Like people just said, we need this, we've got to go in, we've got to be frank, we've got to talk about sex, we've got to bring condoms into schools. Although I remember being in schools in the 90s, um, and they gave us condoms that had been pricked with pins, Oh no

so terrible. Anyway, another story. Um, yeah, so at that time, we were allowed to take that survey into schools and ask about sex, you know, which would have been unheard of. A little bit unheard of now, but going in and asking young people about their sex lives, asking if they're sexually active, asking what they know about condoms are, you know, that, that, that could have only happened, I think, at that moment, and in some ways, that's what enabled us to get ethics approval from the university where we, where it's located, as well as the education departments.

Currently the 8th version is in the field. We've done 7 versions and for 2 and 3, it expanded into Catholic and independent schools. So, in, in the 90s and early 2000s, we were able to get ethics approval to continue that study in schools from the Catholic Education Office.

Um, from whatever was required for various independent schools and from all of the state and territory education departments. I don't feel like we can do that now. I think that the tide has turned for a number of reasons. I think there's a greater conservatism. Um, people are more concerned about what's being said in schools.

So we did notice this. We ended up stopping it because principals were getting more reluctant to do it. Curriculums are also crowded, so it was it was a harder ask to do it within schools, but we were starting to get quite a bias samples. It was just sort of this little collection of progressive inner city schools that were saying yes to it.

And that coincided with the rise of the Internet. So we changed it to an online survey. 2013, it was hybrid as in, we collected some data in schools., we collected some data online through Facebook at the time. And we saw that the sample we were getting on Facebook was quite similar to the sample we got in schools, if not more diverse in terms of age, gender, sexuality, ethnicity.

And, areas of living in the cities. So we moved entirely to online, which has made it a different proposition in terms of the ethics because we're not dealing with schools. So we can get ethics approval to do a survey of what we would call mature minors. So that's, you know, slightly older young people who are, you know, who we can reasonably assume will understand.

The survey will understand what we're asking of them, will understand what the data is used for, will understand their rights within that and so forth.

[00:19:24] Naomi Viret: Do you still have the diversity across the population groups with it being online, just in terms of, say, like, internet access and access to devices and things like that to complete the survey?

Has there been a difference in the audience?

[00:19:36] Jennifer Power: Almost certainly. As in, no, we don't have the diversity that we ideally should have. So it's not so much internet access. I think a lot of people have access to that, but a lot of people just don't know about it. So they're not, you know, when you're online, you're dealing with algorithms essentially you're getting what people will see. Um, and we do tend to get young women, mostly young cisgender women who are quite engaged. And queer young people, they're the, they're the groups that we find we can most easily tap into in online spaces. I think because they're, they're most connected to where our ads will land or they're most connected to services and so forth, who are the people that are really hard to connect with are cisgender heterosexual young men and in terms of sort of other markets of diversity around location, that's actually a bit better online because the schools were sort of a sample of schools from different areas. So we get quite a good sample in terms of rurality, um, and state territory distribution, although it's always a little bit hard with Northern Territory.

Um, yes.

[00:20:44] Naomi Viret: You just said that the eighth version of this research is currently, um, being recruited to and being completed.

[00:20:50] Jennifer Power: We've been collecting data for the 8th iteration of SSASH, so the 2024 25 version for about 6 months now.

It's been really hard. This is the hardest data collection that we've experienced, largely because, um, it's just very hard to reach young people online these days. Um, social media bands have come into effect. So we, we, we had a little period where we could target people 14 to 16 on Instagram that that that windows closed.

So we've really been relying on community services to help us promote the survey as much as possible. Um, some of it we ended up, um, purchasing. We engaged a Student Edge, which is one of those social research panels to reach some young people. Um, we got, we asked them to help us reach young men, particularly.

[00:21:40] Naomi Viret: Thank you so much for providing some of that historical content. I will go back a little bit, I guess, just in the sense of what that secondary school survey means to us as health promotion officers and the data that comes out of that helps to inform and progress the National STI Strategy in respect to prevention of STIs and the effectiveness of STI education among young people. Findings from the survey have also been used to inform state and territory sexual health and STI prevention strategies and plans.

And we certainly use that at a local level. Um, before when you said that there are people chasing you down at conference to talk about that survey, uh, we did get to meet you in 2023 at the Australasian Sexual and Reproductive Health Conference. And we were probably some of those people chasing you down to discuss that.

But, you know, we do talk about that data, being A really accessible, current and up to date and it does definitely inform the work that we're doing with young people. Um, I guess from the most recent, survey, did you see some emerging trends or had there been differences to previous surveys?

[00:22:43] Jennifer Power: Yeah. Just so you know, that's mutual. I just have to get a new laptop at work. And the thing that upset me the most was that I had these great Caddyshack stickers all over my old laptop.

And I couldn't get them off to put on my new computer so we'll post them out for you. Yeah, that'd be great. Thank you.

Um, uh, so most recent server, you know, I get asked a lot, what are the biggest differences that we've seen in survey findings over the course of the SSASH survey? So, you know, what are the trends over time?

And there are some, but in some ways. I think the most interesting change of it is the change in the questions that we've asked. So if you look back in the 90s, it was very focused on HIV, which meant it was very much about, you know, individuals and their bodies and whether or not they put a condom on their body or on their partner's body.

You know, it was sort of. It was very urgent. It was very focused on this one thing and and then, as it should have been, but slowly over time, new issues have started to come in. So, you know, the Internet's happened in that time. So the things that are in focus because of the Internet, particularly sexting and, you know, engagement with online porn and so forth have started to creep in and become this bigger focus.

And then consent has started to come in in new ways. And it's interesting to look back, particularly with issues around consensual sex to look back at what we weren't asking in the, in the 90s. So, the shift isn't necessarily in the answers, but in the, issues that are in focus and how, how that's come up, I guess, for young people, the things that haven't changed are things like the age of sex.

Everyone wants to know,

[00:24:16] Naomi Viret: are they getting younger?

[00:24:18] Jennifer Power: Number one question all the time. Um, and no, they're not. It's about the same. 15, 16. Like, it's pretty, it's pretty consistent. Um, the thing that's changed is the age. Actually, we don't know, like, the age at which people view porn is pretty consistently shown as about 13 in our study and in other studies. People were quite possibly looking at porn mags at 13. Earlier, but no one thought to ask that there wasn't this sort of fear around porn that there is today. So I guess that's emerged as this sort of marker for an, a, you know, a younger marker for something that's happening sexually for young people that people do tend to freak out about, but we don't have any trend over time data for that sort of thing.

The biggest change over time has been the way young people describe their sexuality and their gender. So the big change in gender fluidity, which all of you I'm sure would have observed in your work, just in general life, young people today are much more likely to identify as bi or pan, much more open to that, much more likely to identify as asexual, you know, they've got language around ace.

So in this survey, there's a lot of the one we're collecting at the moment. There's a lot of people who. Um, identify as ace or, um, demisexual or, variations on that. You know, there's lots of language, I guess, is, you know, people, young people are really thinking about the terminology around their gender and their sexuality.

Um, as well. Um, and a lot more people identifying as trans and non binary. That's been a big change. And because of that change, I think we've also seen a change in the way young people talk about sex and what their sexual experiences look like and what they consider to be real sex, you know, the classic, I've lost my virginity, like young people don't necessarily think that you have to put a penis in a vagina to consider yourself sexually experienced or sexually active, like some of the definitions of sex, of what sex is have changed, I think, over time.

[00:26:11] Naomi Viret: And do you think that those changes come from, I guess, um, more societal acceptance around the sexuality and gender diversity? But also, I guess, in terms of the education, as you say, like, since the 90s, there's been so much health promotion and education in this space.

So, you know, I would like to think that as health promotion officers, us talking about what is sex and that that could be something different for everybody, that message is actually getting out there and being like, sex is your own definition, not some clinical definition of what that means to be, but like, you know, intimacy and sexual touch and all that kind of stuff.

Is it a societal change as well? More broadly, not just with young people.

[00:26:49] Jennifer Power: Yep. I think, you know, it would be a really great PhD project if anyone's up for it, really looking at all the factors that have shifted over the last 40 years to shape some of that change. Or even longer, you could go back to the sort of countercultural movement for the 60s and 70s. There was change happening there. I would argue that HIV, HIV activism made a big difference here. It really introduced the language. It brought sex into sexual health promotion, which seems a bit weird, but so much of sexual health promotion is so sanitized and it wasn't, um, community HIV activism wasn't.

So there was a whole different way of doing health promotion that, you know, we learned from those amazing people that were doing that. Um, and then, as you say, I think more to social change, which was probably come from lots of things.

You know, the Internet the Internet's been huge and some of the early adopters of the Internet and of going online to meet people to learn about sex to, you know, to experience sexual exchange or flirtation or dating or whatever have been queer people. And I think that there's, you know, people that aren't finding connection, sexual connection in their geographic location.

That would make sense, right? You go online, but that's created an Internet where there's a whole new world for sexual and gender exploration that didn't exist. So I guess all of those things have come together.

[00:28:12] Naomi Viret: People have been able to find their community.

Yeah. In that online space where they may not have necessarily had that, as you say, geographically available to them, particularly those in rural and remote areas. Um, and I suppose within cultures and religions where some of that sexuality and gender diversity is still quite taboo or forbidden. So yeah, to have those communities and feel that support online must have been really changing.

And at what point did the survey start to ask more inclusively of sexually transmissible infections? Like it started to include things around chlamydia and things like that. Because obviously back in the nineties, we weren't talking chlamydia. It was obviously very focused on HIV.

[00:28:49] Jennifer Power: I think that started quite early. Like, I do think there were questions about herpes and other STIs, quite early on, although I don't know, actually, now you say, I could just be assuming that. um certainly, certainly that's come more into focus, like, you know, more recently, the biggest issues really for young people when it comes to STIs are chlamydia, gonorrhea and increasingly syphilis.

So that is the focus now. So looking at understanding of that. I mean, I think that's also, um, to do with the sort of changing place of condoms and the rise of long acting reversible contraception has changed condoms. So the things that we talk about around STIs and STI prevention have shifted too.

[00:29:30] Naomi Viret: Have shifted, yeah. I guess one of the things that's always come up for me, um, in the secondary schools data and things that we've certainly used here at Caddyshack Project are the rates in which young people are reporting the recipientation of unwanted sext , so the sexting that is either image based or explicit, sex in language, text.

The survey has showed over time that young women were more likely to share these sexual images and that young men or trans and non binary young people. Young people that identify as LGBTQIA plus were more likely than heterosexual young people to have shared these images at least once. Thinking more about this and the difference between consensual sharing of images versus image based abuse where potentially a nude image is taken and shared without consent.

Could you share your thoughts? around that with us, particularly when it comes to those gendered practices and the queering sexualization of sexting, because that seems to be something that has come out in that survey. How do we provide young people with the agency that they need to You know, engage in these independent sexual behaviors in that online space, but in a safe and supported way.

[00:30:41] Jennifer Power: So, I think that relates to what we were just saying before, like, it makes sense that queer people are more engaged online and that includes sexting. So I do think that's why we're seeing that in this data around. LGBTQA plus young people being more likely to have sent or received sexts.

It also makes sense to me that young women are doing it more than young men. Predominantly cisgender in that space. Um, partly because I do think some young women experience pressure to do it. There's a bit of a cultural thing. It's also related to sort of. Instagram and social media and looking beautiful and taking beautiful sexual images, you know, there's a whole heap of stuff that's sort of feminized, I guess, around that. So that makes sense to me. Um, the question around safety. I also wonder how much the way we have phrased the question affects it too. Like, if we said dick pics. Would young heterosexual men or young men broadly recognize that in a different way to nude and sexual images?

I'm not, I'm not about the language. Um, in terms of safety, like the thing that the predominant narrative around sexing is abstinence. essentially, just don't do it. Know, there's not a lot of nuance and there's very little recognition of why people do it, what's enjoyable about it, how it relates to sexual exploration, how it relates to feeling good how it relates to connecting, um, within the SSASH survey, most people are sexting within their relationships, you know, so it's a partner who they're already connected with and they're sharing images with them.

We don't hear a lot about that experience. It's just sort of this overall assumption that it's going to be either to a stranger or someone you don't know very well or someone you don't trust. Not saying that, you know, images can't be sort of shared non consensually, even if you're in a relationship, you know, there's different contexts that aren't really spoken about.

And it's almost like I look at some of the language around that and think, have we learned nothing? We've learned nothing from all of this sexual health promotion over the years, because it's always been about, you need to look at people in the context of their relationships and their desires and their pleasures and what's happening for them and, and, and go from there.

And the aim of any health promotion is to allow people to enjoy this, to experience that pleasure safely. And that's not the language that we have around digital sexual health promotion at the moment. It is absolutely don't do it. Um, and I get why, you know, because if, if an image is shared non consensually, there's very little you can do about it. The, the regulatory bodies are confounded. The legal bodies are like, you know, it's a difficult issue.

[00:33:28] Naomi Viret: The law can't keep up with the pace of the technology. That's been one of the problems.

[00:33:31] Jennifer Power: Yeah, we saw that with young people and sexting laws. Um, so I get it why there's that sort of, you know, and it's new.

So there's this big fear about that, but at the same time, it just, it doesn't work to say, don't do it. And we've done that, this other study with adults, which showed that the shame people felt around sex, like, people didn't talk about sexting because they felt embarrassed that they were doing it at all.

Not because of the sexual shame, but because. They thought that everyone would say to them, Well, you're an idiot. Why would you do that? Why would you do something when you know, it's going to go badly when you know, it's going to end up on the Internet when you know, someone's going to share it with their buddies without your consent, you know, so it, the abstinence narrative just shuts down dialogue.

It doesn't, it doesn't help. And I do think, you know, we're kind of getting there a little bit with young people. There's certainly recognition that it's just common practice, but I think those open conversations aren't happening. And if anything, I think there's this shame narrative creeping in that there's, there's this shaming of young men looking at porn, this shaming of young women sending sex or anyone sending sex.

Like there's this new narrative around shame and sex. And that is, that is more dangerous as well. I think in terms of people's self esteem and willingness to talk about things in a way that helps them stay safe. And also it's bad in terms of the impact. Like, you know, that conversation that you might want to have with someone who's sexing about, okay, well, how would you feel if that did get shared?

You know, what, what would be the impact for you? What would you feel, you know, you know, how do you feel about your body being exposed in that way? Those kind of conversations. That's what they need to happen. And if we've added another layer of shame onto that, I think that's problematic.

[00:35:16] Naomi Viret: And I think the key to all that is that shame often equals silence.

So if we feel that shame, we're more likely to shut down, less likely to disclose if there has been events of, you know, the unconsensual things happening. So that silence and that shame is quite problematic.

[00:35:31] Jennifer Power: Um, I was at the ASHM conference talking about the research on online sexual risk and needing to talk in less shaming ways about about that and someone from ACON came and said to me, Oh, my God, I'd never thought about that.

Because it was the time of COVID. We've been talking about online sexing as safe sex. Like, we don't talk about the shame within that queer community context. And that was really enlightening, I think, for both of us, that conversation, just the way it's very different when there are heterosexual women, um, and misogyny kind of in the mix in ways that are different too.

Um, the way it happens within queer cultures, not saying that there's not misogyny or, or, um, unkind stuff that happens there, but just the, the sexual openness that allows for that to be a different, sexing to be a different experience. It's, it's an interesting comparison.

[00:36:22] Naomi Viret: And that even sexting continues to evolve and will no doubt to continue to evolve past today.

And It's evident that as we evolve in this digital space, that what's needed is more of that online sexual literacy and those, um, capabilities. And that is indeed what we spoke about with Professor Kath Albury in our last episode on young people's digital cultures and sexual health.

So if you haven't already listened, we do invite you to go back because it, highlights those issues that you've just touched on, Jen. And I think, um, Just to also, you know, plug a bit more of the work that you've done in this space, um, in referring to the book where you have a chapter, which is tech, sex and health, you know, the whole book is exploring those interconnected themes of sex, health, bodies and risk in relation to those online emerging technologies.

So I really look forward to seeing and hearing more work in this space, because it's obviously something that. Is tared with so much negativity, but there is so much positivity that could come from it. We have a lot to learn from the responses of , young people, but also considering how that is impacting adults and that the media obviously feeds in a lot to that language and to those conversations that we need to be mindful of as well. So talking about young people, a lot of your work has focused on their attitudes, values and beliefs, um, particularly towards sexual health and relationships. Just last year in 2024, you co published a journal article titled Acceptance Of Use Of Condoms Amongst School Aged Young People in Australia.

The study did show the decline of condom use amongst young people over the last decade. Not surprising with the increased risks of the common bacterial STIs that you've already mentioned around chlamydia, gonorrhea and syphilis.

This does tie into some of the great advancements in HIV prevention, which has potentially led to a decreased use of condoms, but , in regards to this research with young people, what were their attitudes to condom usage? Like why they were or weren't using them?

[00:38:27] Jennifer Power: Um, Sometimes in research, we can't always do the research. We don't always have the data that we want. Like, I have this general interest in condoms and what's happening with young people in relation to condoms, how they're feeling about condoms at this current kind of cultural moment, um, referencing what you just spoke about, the changes in HIV and so forth.

And we haven't asked those questions in the survey, I didn't have those data. So we went into SSASH and really looked at what we did have and what we could draw out that was as close to that as possible. So really having a sense of what's going on. And the thing that struck me, so we did ask, you know, how regularly are people using condoms?

Did you use one for your last sexual experience? Were they available? And as you mentioned that there has been that shift over time. So, increasing numbers of young people over the years have said they had a condom available at their last. or most recent sexual experience or encounter, um, but fewer are actually using that condom.

But we don't necessarily have all of the context around that. We don't know what other decisions people have made around PEP or PrEP or contraception. So there's some more nuanced questions that need to happen there. Um, but the reasons people say that they didn't use a condom haven't changed much over the years.

So it's things like, using other contraception. So but young people tend to see condoms as contraception primarily rather than STI prevention. But all those themes around trusting a partner, they don't have anything, you know, I would know that those kind of things are still there, which they always have been just forgetting not being organized is another thing always been quite common.

So I think over the years, the reasons people don't use a condom haven't changed very much, but the other, the other questions we looked at were, um, things around whether or not people thought their friends were using condoms a lot. So we were just trying to tap into that thing of where condoms sit in this sort of social environment, what people think other people are doing.

And it was, it was quite obvious that people thought their friends weren't consistently using condoms, even when it was the first time they had sex with someone. And if people thought their friends weren't using condoms, they were much less likely to be using condoms themselves. So it's sort of that, you know, it's it's a bit self fulfilling or, you know, if people think other people are using condoms, they're more likely to feel comfortable suggesting it.

 I think all those things that we've long known about around, uh, people worry if, if condoms aren't used by everyone and they're not used consistently and you don't assume everyone else is using it, then it stands out. If you ask someone to use a condom, and what does that mean? Does it mean you don't trust me?

Does it mean you think I might have something? Does it mean you have something like, yeah, it makes it riskier to initiate or suggest condom use. So I guess that's, that's why that question mattered. It's sort of trying to get a sense of where it sits in the social realm. And most people think, that their friends, their peers are not using condoms regularly.

[00:41:22] Naomi Viret: And isn't it interesting how that still continues to feed in like the assumptions that are made and I guess that influence of peer pressure and those peer relationships and that your behavior would match that of your peers purely because you're still wanting to fit in. You don't want to be the outlier or the one that's practicing a different behavior but that those decisions are purely based only on assumption that your friends are or are not using condoms.

[00:41:46] Jennifer Power: Yeah, but of course, I mean, where else is it going to matter more than that vulnerable moment of sex? Like it matters. It really matters what everyone's doing and what everyone's not doing and what someone's going to think of you. It is the one place where it is hard to be vulnerable.

And that's why condom promotion has always been about bringing it up as a social norm, I guess, or as a social practice.

[00:42:07] Naomi Viret: And I think when we're doing that health promotion, you know, we're talking about those conversations, not only around consent, but also around contraceptive choices and condom use before the event is taking place.

So that both parties or, number of parties involved at least have that common understanding or ground about what the expectation around condom use may be at the time of sexual behaviour.

Um, young men were more likely to report positive feelings about sex and regular condom use than young women. Young women were less likely than young men or trans and non binary young people to report regular condom use, which I also, you know, just even reading those results. I find it really interesting in terms of young women, because traditionally we've always spoken about male or external condoms and now we know that we do have internal or female condoms available.

And so I think that comes down to education as well around voice and choice. That it is everybody's responsibility. It is not just a person with a penis's responsibility to take carriage of condom use, I suppose. So, you know, another paper to come perhaps on the uptake of internal condom use as well. 

[00:43:15] Jennifer Power: We've added that in actually this year because a lot of people made that comment that we weren't differentiating in that paper and in the report. Okay. Um, back in the 90s, sorry, I keep referring to the 90s, but you know, the 90s were great. Um, there was some really amazing research on young people and condoms.

Um, which really looked at how, I guess, how like condoms are located culturally for young people. And there were those findings around, you know, what sex meant for young people, you know, the ideal of sex, it should be spontaneous and it should be romantic and it should look a certain way and condoms were seen to interrupt that. And all of the other stuff I mentioned before around condoms were seen as a sign of lack of trust and so forth, but it was really great. nuanced, qualitative work, really into young people's sexual experiences, looking at where condoms sat within that and the kind of sexual cultures around, you know, within which that's at.

That research hasn't been done for a really long time. Like Australia, we sort of shifted away from that type of research. Funding is much more likely to be directed towards big epidemiological studies and sort of pattern based studies around sex and STIs and condom use, particularly since PrEP has been in the mix and everyone's been quite obsessed with watching the declining rate of HIV transmission. So there's a lot of funding in these big epi studies, these big trials, that kind of thing. Um, but I feel like it's time for more of that nuanced qualitative work with young people really looking at their sexual cultures, really looking at where a condom might sit and the decisions that might influence whether or not someone wants to even suggest using a condom within that gendered lens.

I haven't seen research to that effect for a long time. That's really listening to young people on that level.

[00:44:58] Naomi Viret: We still need to keep up making sure that they're accessible, free, you know, all those things that we're trying to do as sexual health promotion officers on a daily basis.

You know, there's obviously a lot of resources available through Caddyshack Project, Play Safe Pro, where we're trying to increase that condom literacy through games like condom cram. How many oranges can you fit in a condom to educate that, you know, they are very flexible. They have a lot of stretch, but yes, they can break. So you know, more work to be done in this space.

[00:45:24] Jennifer Power: I think there's still a place for a condom on a banana in education.

[00:45:28] Naomi Viret: Have you even completed high school PHPD if you haven't done a condom on a banana?

So, um, Jen you have moved into that HIV space and mentioned PrEP, so pre exposure prophylaxis. Um, you have worked in the HIV space. For many years, as you said earlier, starting research in the early nineties, when, HIV / AIDS, was a really big piece of research and so much was changing in the world in terms of this virus and what we did or didn't know.

Back in 2011, this led to you publishing a book Movement Knowledge, Emotion, Gay Activism and HIV AIDS in Australia. A powerful collection with input from many key policy makers and activists at the time. And here we are, you know, a solid 14 years later. And I think that so much possibly out of all the sexually transmissible infections and blood borne viruses, so much has changed in that HIV space.

What were the key learnings from the book, at the time? And how has that shifted to where we are 14 years later?

[00:46:31] Jennifer Power: So that was the book I wrote from my PhD research on HIV activism. It's funny, like I would never call it gay activism now even, but at the time, so I guess that was early two thousands when I was doing that research.

I was sort of referring to how it was seen in the eighties and nineties, the kind of technology that was used. Um, so that book was really about what I spoke about before, you know, what was the impact of HIV activism and why that impact was so profound, um, how that community mobilization really taught us a lot about how to do health promotion differently.

Particularly sexual health promotion, how to bring sex into, but how to bring sex into sexual health promotion, how to bring community, you know, the thing I often say when I'm introducing ARCSHS to people like our research center, is, we were established as one of four national HIV social research centers in Australia.

And the fact that we had a federal health department willing to fund social research, which was essentially public health research using the lens of sociology, gender studies, cultural studies, um, was profound and unheard of because it meant that we could look at HIV prevention through that lens of community and cultural norms through what it means to build connectedness, through what it means to engage community leaders, what it means to look at spaces and places and where people hang out as relevant to sexual practices and safe sex.

All of that had not been part of public health research ever. A little bit in the women's health space, but that was a sort of different political focus in some ways that just hadn't been part of it. And I think while that hasn't expanded as much as I would have liked into other population areas. It has had a profound impact on the way we do public health research, certainly the way we do sexual health research.

And I think that's enduring. The thing that's changed, obviously, is that the biomedicine, um, and I guess something that the sector grapples with a bit these days is what does, what's the role for community activism now? Is it just to help us get kind of drugs into bodies or is there an enduring role around building community, building community connectedness?

Um, you know, supporting well being in order to reach that elimination goal.

[00:48:57] Naomi Viret: Interesting and great collection of thoughts there. I think the thing that I take from that is that we need to keep talking. We need to keep prevention front of mind. Um, despite the biomedics and things like that, we need to be thinking about that prevention and that unfortunately we still have stigma and discrimination that we need to be addressing for individuals living with HIV.

If you haven't, you can listen back to our past episodes on HIV, and of course, we will have another episode solely focusing on HIV later in the year. So, yeah, let's keep the conversations happening. What are your sort of final takeaway thoughts or messages that you'd like to leave with the sector today?

[00:49:37] Jennifer Power: That's a good question. I mean, I guess the things for me, it's always, and I've said it many times now today, putting the sex in sexual health promotion is really important, like we're fundamentally about promoting people's capacity or supporting people's capacity to have pleasurable, safe sex.

And so sex needs to be in those conversations and it's amazing how often it isn't. So keeping up the sex, keeping sex and as you just said, Naomi, you know, keeping open non shaming conversations around this is just so, so important and also I guess keeping up the politics, like this is a really political area and it's never neutral, particularly with young people, certainly with queer people, like it's never neutral, it's constantly changing, it's constantly politically charged and in some ways we're all activists within that as well as researchers or educators or whatever our various roles are. And I think that matters. I think it makes the sector more interesting. I think it makes the issues more important.

[00:50:35] Jennifer Farinella: Thanks for listening to On The Couch. We create this podcast because we are allies in actively challenging discrimination, microaggressions and exclusionary behaviors. We want to create spaces where people feel safe to share their thoughts, knowing they will be heard and respected. Such an environment fosters collaboration, innovation, and contributes to a more inclusive society.

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