On The Couch with Dr Melissa Kang & Yumi Stynes
[00:00:00] Maddy Stratten: Hi, and welcome to another episode of On The Couch, where we collaborate with experts, practitioners, authors, advocates, and influencers to explore current social themes, sex-positive topics, and share stories and insights that matter.
[00:00:24] Winnie Adamson: This podcast was recorded on Aboriginal country. We acknowledge the traditional custodians of the lands that were never ceded on which we live, work, and record upon.
[00:00:33] Maddy Stratten: We pay our respect to elders past and present, and to those who may be visiting our website or listening to our podcast today.
[00:00:40] Winnie Adamson: While listening, we encourage you to practice good self-care, and of course, check the show notes for further information.
[00:00:45] Maddy Stratten: Wherever you are, whatever you're doing...
[00:00:48] Winnie Adamson: Enjoy this episode of On The Couch
[00:00:49] Maddy Stratten: I'm Maddy Stratten, and I'm here with my co-host and friend, Winnie Adamson.
[00:00:56] Winnie Adamson: Hi, Maddy. I'm really looking forward to today's episode, as we're talking about conversations about sex, bodies, and consent, and how we can approach these with confidence and care.
[00:01:06] Maddy Stratten: That's right, Winnie. Today we are joined by two incredible guests, the co-authors of the award-winning Welcome to... book series. Hello and welcome on the couch, Dr. Melissa Kang and Yumi Stynes.
[00:01:16] Dr Melissa Kang & Yumi Stynes: Yeah. Hi. Here we are. We're here. We made it.
[00:01:19] Winnie Adamson: So lovely to have you both join us On The Couch, and every episode we do introduce our guests using the fields of existence and coordinates of belonging by Co-Culture Communications.
[00:01:30] And these concepts really demonstrate that our beings are a field of activity made up of the stories that we've been told, our ancestors that have existed, and the land under our feet, and the places that we stand. And all these enforce and form who we are in this moment as contextual beings.
[00:01:46] Dr Melissa Kang: Mm.
[00:01:46] Winnie Adamson: So starting with you, Melissa, how do you define and locate yourself, and what are your coordinates of belonging?
[00:01:52] Dr Melissa Kang: Thanks, Winnie, and hi, Maddy. Hi, Yumi, and hi, everybody. Thank you very much for inviting me to this really exciting conversation. I love the concept of coordinates of belonging, and as someone who's chosen to go into the adolescent development and adolescent health field, I think it says something about my own shaping of my identity and sort of almost feeling a bit stuck there my whole life.
[00:02:16] So I would say that my coordinates of belonging are scattered, and that a theme throughout my whole life has actually been about not quite belonging anywhere.
[00:02:25] Yumi Stynes: Mm.
[00:02:26] Dr Melissa Kang: I am mixed race. Each of my parents were descendants of either migrants or colanisers in their countries of birth, and that's profoundly part of who I am.
[00:02:37] Mm. Neither of my parents knew much about their ancestry. My father was an orphan and grew up pretty homeless as a child. I lived my childhood in Malaysia, where my father was from, and my adolescence and the rest of my life here in Australia. And I've moved from Gadigal to Darug country, and I'm back again now living and working, uh, on Gadigal country.
[00:03:00] So professionally, I've also sat between disciplines. I'm a medical doctor who's not really a GP, not really an adolescent hospital specialist, not really a sexologist, and not really a sexual health specialist, but a little bit of each. And I'm an academic who's better known for my role in Dolly Magazine than all the other education roles , day jobs and research that I've done throughout my career.
[00:03:24] But despite that, I'm actually not comfortable, particularly in the media limelight. I've never wanted to be known as who I really am in Dolly Magazine, but I also was very comfortable that I was acknowledged as a real doctor.
[00:03:37] Maddy Stratten: Mm.
[00:03:38] Dr Melissa Kang: So I would say with all of that behind me, as I was young and growing up professionally and personally, it wasn't till I had my first child, I have four children, was having that first child when I was still technically a young person It's probably when I felt grounded and belonged somewhere for the first time in my life.
[00:03:57] Mm. So that's a little bit about me.
[00:03:59] Maddy Stratten: Mm. Thanks, Melissa. It's, it's so great to hear, um, a little bit more of your story outside of an academic or a professional, bio, for sure. And I think back to, you know, 2021 when we first worked together on the Dolly Doctor webinar series for Caddyshack Project. Yeah.
[00:04:16] Mm-hmm. It's probably no surprise that even after all of these years and all of the episodes that we've done on the couch, the How to Make a Woman Orgasm episode is still our top ranking most popular episode with over 10,000 views, which is a lot for, uh, Caddyshack . Uh, that was followed by our How to Get a Bigger Penis Manually and How to Get Rid of Genital Warts episodes.
[00:04:39] So I guess what this tells us is that, um, this is what people are wanting to know, and this is where they're going to find the information. So I think that's quite fitting for our conversation today. Um, but I'll hand over to you, Yumi, um, now if you'd like to jump in and define and locate yourself.
[00:04:56] Yumi Stynes: Sure.
[00:04:56] Thank you, Maddy. Thank you, Winnie. Uh, my name's Yumi. I'm on unceded Gadigal land, land of the Eora nation. Um, and I very much do identify as Australian, even though, like Melissa, I am mixed race, Japanese, um, and white Australian. I have, um, always really felt a deep love, like a yearning sort of attachment- Mm
[00:05:20] to this particular country. And moving from Melbourne up to Gadigal land, Sydney, I just felt so elated to be on this land and to be blessed enough to spend time walking around and experiencing the nature and beauty of this particular place. Uh, it's a, it's a thrill that never wears off. Professionally, I define myself as a broadcaster and author.
[00:05:43] I'm also a mother of four, and part of what I do for a living is talk a lot. Mm. So that- that's how I see myself situated.
[00:05:53] Maddy Stratten: Thanks, Yumi. We will try and keep to the one hour today, but when we've got four talkers, we could be struggling a little bit . Um, but M- um, back to you, Melissa. I remember, um, running into you at the World Association of Sexual Health Congress, um, up in Brisbane, and we were starting to talk about this episode, doing this episode together and, and inviting Yumi to join us because it's no surprise that we're huge fans of your work, Yumi, and the Ladies' We Need to Talk podcast.
[00:06:21] It's been a conversation in the office many a times with the different topics that have come up in that podcast. So thanks for joining us. It's really cool to be at this stage and hear both of your coordinates and connect with you here On The Couch. Um, and I guess we can really hear- I guess the values-led, strengths-based advocacy that runs through your personal and professional stories, and it really sets up what we will be unpacking today.
[00:06:48] Um, yeah, we really genuinely love taking the time to hear our guests' coordinates and the earnings, and grounding us in why we're here, and helping frame the conversations that we're gonna be having around sex, bodies, and consent with intention and care.
[00:07:03] Winnie Adamson: Yeah, so true, Maddy. It's always such a highlight, and I think really adds- Mm
[00:07:08] to the conversation, and good way to set up our conversation. And we were talking earlier about how professional relationships like yours, Melissa and Yumi, um, how they come about, and how the mutual respect and commitment to the work is so aligned between the two of you. Can you share how you first connected with each other?
[00:07:27] Starting with you, Melissa.
[00:07:30] Dr Melissa Kang: Sure. I received a phone call out of the blue from a woman called Claudie Ryan, who was the first producer of Ladies We Need To Talk, asking me if I'd willing to do a podcast episode with Yumi about the vulva, I think, Yumi. And of course I was. I was thrilled. And I was also asked to do a, I think, a follow-up interview about masturbation, so two of my favorite topics really.
[00:07:52] So Yumi, Yumi and the crew came to my office. Uh, at the time I was working at the University of Technology, Sydney, and we had these lovely conversations about the vulva. I think Yumi said, "Take me on a tour around the vulva," like-
[00:08:05] through words, that's all. Not- Mm ... not anything else. And I remember after the first few minutes realizing I was talking in my normal voice about the anatomy of the vulva, and then a subsequent interview, I think, about masturbation, and that's when I first realized that the walls between my office and the two adjacent to me were really quite thin.
[00:08:25] And I am not sure if anyone heard what I was saying, but if they did, they never told me. I think it was then, um, a few months later, Yumi, we'd met up again at an event at the Opera House, and that's when you asked me if I'd be interested in co-authoring a book about periods, and I just jumped at the chance.
[00:08:44] Maddy Stratten: There was a proposal then.
[00:08:46] Yumi Stynes: There was. So the, the thing about w- showing up to Dr. Melissa's office to record one of the very first episodes of Ladies We Need To Talk is- Mm-hmm ... we were all acting very cool, but we were all extremely excited to be- Mm-hmm ... meeting the original Dolly Doctor. And y- y- it sounds like I'm talking it up now, but people in my cohort and my friendship group were like, "Oh, my God."
[00:09:11] "Did you meet the actual Dolly Doctor?" And they couldn't believe it, and they really wanted to sit with me and, like, grab me by the shoulders and say- ... "Tell me what she was like." And the fact that I, I showed up and, and met this woman, who was one of the first mixed race Asian women that I had ever seen in the public eye, that I remembered seeing her tiny photo, it was as big as a postage stamp, in Dolly Doctor and going, "I think she's Asian."
[00:09:35] And I was so excited to, to recognize somebody who looked a bit like me- Mm ... in the public eye and talking in this way and, and to know that that little girl then grew up to be this woman who got to have her, have Dr. Melissa's phone number in my phone. I was like, "This is wild." And it was actually our publisher, Marisa Pintado's idea that we team up to write a book, and we
[00:09:57] we sort of workshopped what is a pressing issue that needs to be written about, and at that point there had, there were no real guidebooks for young people- Mm ... experiencing their period. There were a lot of academic books, there were a lot of journal entries, but nothing that spoke to a 10-year-old.
[00:10:12] You know, I think we picture, like, a 14, 15-year-old person who's gonna get their period, but actually it's more like 10 that they need to hear this information. And so what would speak to that particular child? And Melissa and I felt like we had the tools to be able to create something for that readership.
[00:10:27] Maddy Stratten: Yeah. I feel like we, um, I'm looking at you, Winnie, really resonate with how you were fangirling over Melissa Kang, Dr. Melissa Kang, because we were also doing the same over both of you just maybe five minutes before we jumped online. Oh. So, so I feel, yeah, that is the, the moment that we're in here as well.
[00:10:46] We will talk about this day for a long time, I think.
[00:10:49] Yumi Stynes: I know, that's lovely.
[00:10:51] Maddy Stratten: Um, but yeah, as we were talking about the work and, and the Welcome To book series, for our listeners, the Welcome to book series is an award-winning Australian collection of respectful relationships and sex education books for adolescents.
[00:11:05] There are currently four books in the series: Welcome to Your Period, published in 2019; Welcome to Consent in 2021; Welcome to Your Boobs in 2022; and Welcome to Sex in 2023. Melissa, you've spoken before about how this book series was inspired, I guess, um, along with Yumi, around your previous role as the longest serving, I believe, expert behind the iconic Dolly Doctor magazine column.
[00:11:32] Um, and in that column, is where you answered the burning questions from young people around health, sex, and relationships. So, um, you've already started talking about the, the spark around the beginning of the Welcome to book series, but where were the, the gaps that you were seeing?
[00:11:50] Can you talk a little bit more, Yumi, about the gaps you were seeing in the resources available to young people, and, um, why this felt so necessary?
[00:11:59] Yumi Stynes: Yeah. Well, both Melissa and I have four children each, so of course, we were looking for resources like that for our own family members.
[00:12:06] Mm-hmm. And then in our work, of course, in different ways we sort of both triangulate to meet this idea from different angles. And obviously we're looking for the, the great period book or the great book about consent, and no such book existed. Mm-hmm. And so we felt like we, we could start to make headway into that and create something that we would actually want to read or read with our children, or- Yeah
[00:12:31] trust that we could hand over to young people.
[00:12:34] Maddy Stratten: Yeah.
[00:12:36] Dr Melissa Kang: Yeah, I think I would say that within two or three years of starting to write for Dolly Doctor, and I started in 1993, so in the mid 1990s or so, I thought, Wow, I really need ... Someone needs to write a book about sex and about other aspects of growing up in during adolescence and what happens to your body.
[00:12:55] So there's this kind of secrecy around what happens to your body and- Mm ... the, the, the feelings you have and the emotions and the attractions and the sorting out of your identity. And I did actually have, uh, my, my boss at the time and my mentor had recently published a book on parenting of adolescents, which sold really well and was a really good book.
[00:13:18] It was illustrated. And I said, "Do you think I could talk to your publisher and see if they'd be willing to have an illustrated book around sex and puberty and bodies and stuff?" So he gave me their contact, and I got in touch, and they basically said, "Oh, I don't think there's a market for this." So I think even back then there was a sense that- adolescents, uh, to, they're not ready to have this information, even though Dolly Doctor was answering their questions all of the years since 1970.
[00:13:47] Mm. All of the questions go back, you know, for a very long time, generations, about sex and bodies and change and identities and attractions and relationships. Mm. So it took a long time, I think, for something like the Welcome To series, ... And, and the key thing for me, having to write answers to questions for the magazine that were only restricted to 150, maybe 200 words maximum- Yeah
[00:14:09] and no diagrams and no illustrations.
[00:14:11] Yumi Stynes: Mm.
[00:14:12] Dr Melissa Kang: This was, you know, something that was being cried out for, I think. Mm. And so, uh, yeah, I think there's certainly, uh, been a void there for a long time. Even though there are some really good resources that services have developed and, and people have written, I think it's that combination of really having young people's authentic voices at the heart of all of the books.
[00:14:34] Mm. And making sure that what we're writing about is what they want to know, 'cause they've told us that.
[00:14:39] Yumi Stynes: Mm. I agree. And, the fact that Melissa's column was really the most popular part of Dolly- Mm ... that we would all turn to first, and boys and, you know, older siblings as well would always go straight to Dolly Doctor, and yet it never expanded.
[00:14:52] They never thought, "Oh, we should m- you know, make this grow as part of the magazine." They were always like, "No, no, no. We're just gonna keep it. It's too much, too much." The thing that Melissa always brought, and, and the other Dolly Doctors that existed in the course of the magazine, was this sort of really unflinching reception of what children's fears and worries were around bodies and sex and relationships.
[00:15:14] It was always ... It was never like, cringe, oh my God, you can't say that. It was always like very, very level absorption of, of a question, and then a very level-headed reply, which was so generous and so really unusual for its time. Mm. And that's what we've tried to do with the books. And as Melissa pointed out, having their voices centered in the books- Mm
[00:15:37] makes it so incredibly refreshing, because they're so raw. They're often really funny. Yes. Really wacky stuff. And everybody's experience of, of, say, for instance, the first time you get your period, we might have six different stories of what that was like, and they're all really different. And- Mm ... so kids get to see that and s- and see firsthand, oh, there's no right way to do it.
[00:15:58] There's just, there's the way that I get to do it, but it's not wrong if it's different from what I thought was the right way to do it. And that can be absolutely such a relief for young people.
[00:16:09] Maddy Stratten: Mm. Mm.
[00:16:10] Winnie Adamson: Mm. That's so true. Um, everyone remembers Dolly magazine for Dolly Doctor.
[00:16:17] Mm. So- Maybe ... it's a good point, and I think it really brings us back to the research too and what research tells us. Because research also shows that comprehensive relationships and sexuality education, or RSE as we call it, is known to help young people make safer choices when they first decide to have sex.
[00:16:35] It reduces the rates of STIs, unintended pregnancy, and experiences of sexual assault and child sexual abuse, and it helps young people feel prepared for when they are ready.
[00:16:45] Yumi Stynes: Mm-hmm.
[00:16:45] Winnie Adamson: And knowing this and the fact these books are targeting adolescents I think is incredibly important, as we've discussed.
[00:16:51] And it also makes me think of our last two episodes of On The Couch, where we chatted, um, about the data from the Australian Secondary School Survey with Professor Jennifer Power, and the ever-evolving space of digital sexual and reproductive health education with Dr. Giselle and Dr. Sarah, and the very current and topical changes of censorship and age verifications
[00:17:12] happening in Australia. And so I think it's really, um, good timing for this conversation and talking about these books, and that they exist to really fill that gap as well. Mm.
[00:17:23] Maddy Stratten: Yeah. And for our listeners as well, the, Professor Jennifer Power episode, um, jump in and have a listen to hear more of the data of what young people are actually saying, so the most up-to-date, um, information that we have. So yeah, I guess it's just really an important conversation, and the evidence is very clear around the benefits and impact of, of comprehensive RSE, especially when it's supported by whole of community approaches.
[00:17:49] Um, look, we don't want to move forward, without acknowledging the controversy around the Welcome to Sex book in 2023 and the impact that that moment had. I don't want to spend too long here, but we do want to recognize the seriousness of what you both experienced. And from a sex positive sexual health community, we want to thank you for continuing to show up so visibly in this space, and for paving the way for so many educators, advocates, and people working in this space to produce holistic, inclusive, evidence-based sex education content and resources for young people.
[00:18:25] So I wanted to, um, say that upfront. Um, I guess, you know, reflecting back now, uh, do either of you want to jump in and, and share a little bit about how that period, I guess, affirmed your commitment to comprehensive sex education and, and perhaps further enforcing why this work matters?
[00:18:46] Yumi Stynes: Well, first of all, I wanna say thank you for that acknowledgement, Maddy.
[00:18:49] That actually means a lot to me, and I felt like a little, um, pain in my throat of-
[00:18:53] Maddy Stratten: Yeah ...
[00:18:54] Yumi Stynes: wanting to cry a little bit, because it's really kind of you to point out that that sucked for us, 'cause it did- Mm ... it really did suck a l- a lot. Mm. I think, uh, I think in the, the furore around it, because all of our books in those weeks afterwards, they all went to number one, two, three, and four- Uh, in, in the wash people thought we were victorious and we had g- gra- gained the moral high ground, we could dust ourselves off and move on.
[00:19:19] But it doesn't actually necessarily repair some of the hurt and injury that we experienced as human beings trying to live and trying to do our work in the world, you know? , So thank you again. It did, it did, to be honest, I think for me, put, uh, a bit of a, a writer's block in place where I was like, "Well, why would I write the next book in the series because this is what happened with the last one?"
[00:19:42] Maddy Stratten: Right.
[00:19:42] Yumi Stynes: But I think more than anything, it underlined the fact that this is so necessary and that there are forces out there who do wanna shut down comprehensive- Mm ... safe, respectful, informed and researched sex education, particularly for girls and people Mm. assigned female at birth. It's, it's just wild how much people are willing to screw down on our access to information in order to control us, but particularly young people.
[00:20:09] Mm. Mm. Once you've reached a certain age, you can't unlearn all this stuff, but there is a point where you can exist in absolute ignorance. As Dr. Melissa and I both experienced, we didn't know much about getting our period prior to it happening to our bodies, and many of the stories that we h- we heard were from people having a si- similar experience- Mm
[00:20:27] where they're like, "What the hell is this?" So the more education that we have, the more empowered we are, and the more education you have, the more empowered you are to say, "No, I don't want that," or, "No, that doesn't suit me," or, "No, that doesn't feel nice for me." And you can put your boundaries up and keep yourself safe.
[00:20:46] Mm. And you can also help those around you to understand how they can be kept safe or show them respect about their boundaries, and all of this benefits us.
[00:20:56] It does not necessarily benefit patriarchy and, and bad actors. So that really felt reinforced. And in the years since, with Trump being in power, I think we've seen more and more how overt the desire to roll back women's rights actually can be.
[00:21:13] I think we all thought it was maybe a covert thing, but now it's like, no, no, we just, we just want you to not be able to access birth control because, you know, it's, it's so wild how many steps backwards culture has taken in, in those terms. And I think that's emphasized for me how important the books really are.
[00:21:32] Maddy Stratten: Yeah. Yeah. And I guess, like, you know, having that empowering, accessible resource, you know, it's, we talk about digital spaces and, and we love to be, ensuring that we've got trustworthy, reliable information in digital spaces. But having a physical book for a young person, and, and not a huge, big booklet, A4 booklet, a physical book that we can just sit in our bedroom on our own to read through because I don't wanna ask that question to my parents 'cause I'm embarrassed," or, "You know, I feel like I should already know this information because I'm 13 years old."
[00:22:04] And no, it's fine. Take your time. Like, this book is here for that. So yeah, I, wanna say again, really appreciate the continued work that you do in this space. And, I guess knowing the strong evidence that this work and hearing you both reflecting on the Welcome To journey really speaks to how responsive the series has been to real lived experiences of young people.
[00:22:25] Um, you've mentioned already the, um, writing of the newest addition to the series, Welcome to Friendship, which I believe is being released this year.
[00:22:36] Yumi Stynes: We got the advance author copies last week, so before the end of the year it's coming out. Welcome to Friendship.
[00:22:42] Maddy Stratten: Mm. I love, I love that this is the next book for this series because, friendship, building it, losing it, and everything in between is something that we talk about a lot at Caddyshack Project. In so many ways, friendship can be just as hard, if not harder, to navigate than romantic relationships.
[00:23:00] And I guess friendship can be that core part of building a community and creating a sense of belonging in safe and respectful networks. We've been reflecting on this, especially with the current social conversations around the importance of having community and the impact on sharing sexual health knowledge, maintaining healthy relationships, and preventing sexual violence.
[00:23:22] So, um, I'll hand over uh, Melissa and Yumi, if you could talk us through, uh, how this book came about, the collaborative development process with young people, and I guess the gaps here around friendship and why this was the next book, and what you hope it's gonna offer them.
[00:23:40] Dr Melissa Kang: Yumi, why don't you go first?
[00:23:41] 'Cause I feel like, you know, this book really came from your soul and, and you invited me in to, to join you, and, you know, I can talk a little bit about the, the bits that I researched and wrote about.
[00:23:53] Yeah.
[00:23:54] Yumi Stynes: Yeah, so with all of the books, uh, Winnie and Maddy, uh, there- there's always this sort of assumed base knowledge.
[00:24:01] Mm-hmm. So for instance, you might know that if you get your period, you should take some s- some pads to school, right? Mm-hmm. But the thing is, nobody told me to do that, and I actually had to go through a bit of trial and error before that occurred to me that that might be necessary, right? Yeah. So with every single thing, there's, there's an, a level of assumed knowledge, but then there's the actual reality which is maybe there's a chasm- that you need to fill or maybe your mom, uh, or your parents were, were incredibly communicative. And that totally occurs for sex, for consent, for boobs, and of course for friendship. There's some people who are really intuitive about how to make a friend and how to keep a friend, how to be a good friend, and there are others who would really actually benefit from having things spelled out for them.
[00:24:41] Dr Melissa Kang: Mm-hmm.
[00:24:41] Yumi Stynes: So we often start at that point. L- let's just spell everything out as clearly as we can. Mm-hmm. And with social issues, it can be incredibly subjective. It's not like the science of a period. It's like, well, the, everybody is different. You might not like to be hugged or you might feel shy talking on the phone.
[00:24:58] You might detest group activities and actually like being on your own. Yeah. So you have to kind of cater and understand that this is a thing, um, for many different types of people. But there are some common things that work across lots and lots of people. So let's talk them through. So f- just for instance, if you are hoping to make a new friend, having a regular cadence to your interactions is really helpful.
[00:25:25] So for instance, if you go to a team group thing like Scouts or the gym once per week, and you run into that person regularly and you know you'll see them next week, that is actually a really good starting point to start becoming friends with people. Mm-hmm. You can make a low stakes overture to them and build on that slowly as time goes on.
[00:25:45] Mm-hmm. Time is required for things like trust in a friendship. Mm-hmm. So all that stuff we spell out really clearly. So if you're coming from a position of complete ignorance, you can start to figure some things out. Mm-hmm. But just back to Melissa's point about this coming from my soul is that I just spent a lot of time really interrogating my own friendships and understanding the meaning and the absolute gift that is chosen family.
[00:26:11] Winnie Adamson: Mm-hmm.
[00:26:11] Yumi Stynes: You know, when you become- uh, the, the driver of your life. You're at the steering wheel and you're like, "Actually, I want that legend to be my friend." And you start thinking about, how can I make that happen? What can I contribute? How am I being a good friend, and how are they being a good-- Why are they so awesome to me?
[00:26:29] What do they do? Can I learn from that? Yeah. And you start to see there are some structures and behaviors that you can encourage in yourself to be a better friend, and it doesn't stop. Mm-hmm. This is the, the, the thing. I know you're younger than me. You can get better at being a friend- Mm-hmm ... as you grow and, you know, by, by the time you're old, hopefully you're really, like, you're a maestro at friendship, and you have this whole orchestra of wonderful friends, and they are so beautiful in your life.
[00:26:58] So what a thing to offer the world. And, and also, after Welcome to Sex, and that huge controversy, I am optimistic that this is going to be completely an uncontroversial book. Yep.
[00:27:12] Dr Melissa Kang: Yeah. And, and look, uh, , Yumi really drove this through passion and, and Yumi's been a wonderful friend to me and, and Yumi's a great cook.
[00:27:18] You might also know she's written some great cookbooks. And I remember when my mother was dying, I think, um, we met up about the book, one of the books, and, and handed me a pot full of food, and, you know, that's just such a lovely gesture, so thank you, Yumi. Um, I think my contribution to the book came from, you know, much less so around my clinical work as a doctor, which informed a lot of the other books because even though I would talk to young people in my office about friendship and relationships, it was generally not the first thing that they talked about.
[00:27:53] They wanted information about something to do with their body or sex or, or mental health or something like that. So my contribution to the book really came from making sure I was fully up to speed with the latest in neuroscience, brain development- Uh, often psych- uh, academic psychologists and, and clinicians who study relationships and friendships.
[00:28:15] So talking to some, some of those colleagues. The, I guess what I would have seen clinically, uh, as the explosion in mental health issues that starting to see in my clinical practice the advent of loneliness as a real issue globally for people of all ages, the impact of, um, AI on relationships. I was seeing a lot more young people in my clinical work with neurodiverse, and divergent conditions, um, with, with gender diversity.
[00:28:52] And so making sure that I was across as much as I could be as far as the, the current, you know, science, I guess, behind relationships and friendships was concerned.
[00:29:03] Winnie Adamson: Mm.
[00:29:04] Dr Melissa Kang: Mm. I also felt after, um, thinking more about friendship that a group of people that I hadn't previously turned to in writing the books were teachers.
[00:29:13] Teachers, primary school and secondary school, who live and breathe the you know, the fights and the arguments and the, um, heartbreak that students go through when they're having problems with friends. And I guess over the years I had interacted with school teachers quite a lot, particularly if an, a young person's health was impacting their education or vice versa.
[00:29:36] So we interviewed teachers as well and got some really interesting perspectives on- Mm ... how they saw adolescent friendships. So I guess that was, you know, those were the things I thought I could and should bring to the book as well.
[00:29:49] Maddy Stratten: Yeah. That sounds great. And I guess, you know, that really ensures that the content is relevant and accessible, um, and also, I guess really supports teachers who are working with young people to be able to use these books- Mm
[00:30:03] as well to understand, you know, what's, what's friendship look like for young people. But also I'm sure that there's gonna be some things that we're gonna learn in there as well for ourselves.
[00:30:12] Winnie Adamson: Yeah. It links, uh ... I think that leads really nicely in diving deeper into how, as healthcare professionals, youth workers, teachers, clinicians, and parents, we can be talking about sex, bodies, and consent with young people, and how we do that with confidence and care.
[00:30:28] And going back to research and evidence, it does show us that young people want more inclusive and realistic information about sexual and gender diversity, innate variations of sex characteristics, violence in relationships, consent and coercion, intimacy, sexual pleasure, and love, among other topics.
[00:30:45] Maddy Stratten: Mm-hmm. Yeah. And it also makes me think, Winnie, about the episodes that we did on The Couch last year. Mm-hmm. We spoke with, Tom and Adie from the Sticky Q's podcast. So if you've not heard of Sticky Q's before, it's a podcast where they answer anonymous sexual health and relationship questions from their real-life education sessions with young people.
[00:31:03] So these questions are coming from young people themselves. And, um, yeah, it's really important that we listen to them, and that podcast talks about that.
[00:31:13] Winnie Adamson: Mm. And that podcast, their work is really around giving parents, teachers, and youth workers that language and tools- Yeah ... to have those conversations.
[00:31:21] Um, and building skills to support that whole-of-community approach. And handing over to you, Melissa and Yumi, similar to using podcasts as a digital resource, how are these books used, and what feedback have you received about the series and the supporting conversations around sex, bodies, and consent with young people?
[00:31:42] Yumi Stynes: One of the things that I hear a lot from parents, so a lot of people message me directly on Instagram to feedback about how the books have been received by their children, is they love that it's a finite resource. So it's not like the bottomless internet where you can click- Yeah
[00:31:57] boobs and then next minute you're watching something that you really don't want your child to be seeing. So that, that is a really big thing. Um, they, parents love that they can leave it on their kid's bedside table or on their pillow and then just go, "Okay, come to me with questions." I think one of the things that you said, Maddy, was interesting, just, just naming, um, issues like coercive control or- Mm-hmm
[00:32:20] um, sexual assault. It, I think parents can really clam up and freeze and go into panic. Mm. And it's not because they're incompetent or bad parents, it's because they're afraid of saying the wrong thing.
[00:32:31] Winnie Adamson: Mm.
[00:32:32] Yumi Stynes: And I have to really emphasize that children really want the conversations with the parents, and they're not judgmental.
[00:32:39] They love their parents generally. So if you're having that reaction of, "Oh, I just don't wanna say the wrong thing," or, "I don't wanna misrepresent, a, a, a culture, a subculture that I'm not part of," um- Mm ... the thing that you can say is, "I don't know."
[00:32:54] Winnie Adamson: Mm.
[00:32:54] Yumi Stynes: Like, that is totally okay to say, "I don't actually know, but I would love to continue the conversation with you."
[00:33:00] Mm. "So let's get back to it." So that, that is one thing I'd really like to emphasize. And the other thing is that the books themselves are not meant to be standalone-
[00:33:08] Maddy Stratten: Yes ...
[00:33:09] Yumi Stynes: monolithic texts that, that are the whole entire thing. You need to keep working in conversations that are age-appropriate and that respond to where your child is at and where their friendship peer group is, is at, and keep that conversation flowing and, you know, use, like you say, podcast resources and other resources.
[00:33:27] Maddy Stratten: Mm. Yeah, and also thinking about, you know, the resources that we promote a lot with- within New South Wales is places like PlaySafe, the International Student Health Hub, Take Blaktion. Also coming to mind is, um, you know, ACON's TransHub and, um, you know, Teach Us Consent have fantastic resources. And we'll put a whole heap of resources in, the show notes, uh, for this episode as well so that we can continue having those conversations and learning.
[00:33:55] Yumi Stynes: Just talking back to the first time that Dr. Melissa and I met each other, and Melissa was talking us through the, the vulva as though we were a tiny, tiny spaceship going through like an epic an epic dialogue.
[00:34:07] Dr Melissa Kang: Magic yellow bus. Yeah.
[00:34:08] Maddy Stratten: Yeah. I was gonna say magic school bus vibes.
[00:34:12] Yumi Stynes: I ... I just remember I actually had like a, the sensation of being back in that room and I, because the, the podcast Ladies We Need To Talk was only months old, I wasn't so experienced at having these conversations about intimacy and, and bodies and, and those bits that have shame around them.
[00:34:29] And I remember feeling like, "Oh, my God, I'm gonna have to push through my sense of awkwardness to continue this conversation and be professional." Mm. And, and what that illustrates for me now is how much you need to just repeat the behavior and practice at it to get better at it. So a lot of parents and educators might be experiencing that, "Oh, my God, I'm
[00:34:51] You know, I'm gonna say the wrong thing," or, "This is something that my mom would never allow me to talk about in public, but here I am." So all of those things are real, and they're valid, but also they can be overcome through lots of practice, and then you'll find yourself at the other end just happily talking about all of the things that are to do with that, whether it's with your children or, you know, in a, in a space like this with, with all the kind of guards down, the weapons are down, and the shame is not there anymore.
[00:35:19] Maddy Stratten: Mm.
[00:35:20] Winnie Adamson: Mm. Thank you. I really hear that, and I love the idea of saying, um, "I don't know." Mm. Because I think there is so much power and opportunity for connection and trust When a person in authority like a teacher or your parent says something like that to you, and let's work it out together.
[00:35:37] Maddy Stratten: Mm.
[00:35:38] Winnie Adamson: Let's find out the information together, and I really love that idea because there can be such pressure to know the answers.
[00:35:46] Um, and we all have such different experiences of what our sex education has looked like, you know? So I really love those tips, and it's really great to hear how that intention has come through. Um, and thinking about inclusive language as well and tone through the books. Mm-hmm. Especially in those early chapters of The Welcome to Sex, where information around sexual and gender identities and body and sex characteristic labels are included as well as resources for further learning.
[00:36:17] And it's so important to understand how when having conversations with young people, we know that everyone has such a unique experience.
[00:36:23] Maddy Stratten: Mm.
[00:36:24] Winnie Adamson: Um, so I'd like to ask: What do you see as important when having conversations with young people, um, about sexuality, gender identity, and our communities of people with intersex variations?
[00:36:36] Dr Melissa Kang: Well, I, guess as, as everyone knows, my interactions with young people have been as a doctor. So these are, things that, I've learnt as a doctor. But also I'm aware that in the medical profession there's still a lot of lack of understanding and lack of knowledge.
[00:36:52] And you know, there's been a lot of advocacy from, from groups to have natural variations and natural diversity recognized as such and nothing, you know, nothing wrong. I, find that when I meet a young person, I sort of like always starting with a blank slate. I don't make any assumptions based on their appearance, based on the way they speak,
[00:37:19] so I think probably I would say that that's always been the best advice I can give anybody else. It's a bit like the introduction to this, this podcast where we talked about our own identities and where we, where we come from. I think that's always been my approach. And the, the advice I've given to other health professionals, particularly when I've done...
[00:37:41] I've done quite a lot of training over the years, uh, to assist health professionals, be they doctors, nurses, um all sorts of health professionals, around how to communicate with young people. How to There's always this assumption that young people don't want to talk to adults, that has never been my experience. And I think it's, it takes time to convince other adults, uh, who are, are scared, I think, of talking to young people. But it, it's really one of the loveliest conversations you can have.
[00:38:13] Maddy Stratten: Mm.
[00:38:13] Dr Melissa Kang: So that's a bit of a generic response, but I do think that that's the most important- Mm
[00:38:17] starting place. And really just hearing from- Young people from all sorts of backgrounds you know, and, and bodies and abilities and brains, what it's like for them- Mm ... how they see themselves, what it is that they would like more of, more information about, some help with, support for. That's just the best starting place.
[00:38:39] Winnie Adamson: Mm. Yeah. Yeah, thanks for sharing, Melissa. Um, I wanna continue to talk about the inclusivity in the books. Um, and it's a really important element , and I love the representations, in the illustrations, so the normalization of different bodies, of cultures, of skin textures.
[00:39:00] I love how there's a few pimples on some young people. You know, that's really realistic. Um, and so I think that's really important to have there. And one of the, quotes that I absolutely loved was, "When we're talking about boundaries and consent, we mean personal, physical boundaries, as well as ethical, emotional, and mental boundaries."
[00:39:19] Yumi Stynes: Mm. Mm.
[00:39:19] Winnie Adamson: And we have talked a lot about consent on the couch, and one thing that continues to come up in the books is normalizing the diverse experiences of having conversations about complex topics. And so in preparation for this episode, one of the questions our colleagues at Multicultural Health was curious to hear about was how we talk about consent with young people from different cultural backgrounds.
[00:39:43] And the Welcome to Consent book, you have a really great page called Different Cultures and Different Meanings, which sets a safe space to talk about boundaries, bodily autonomy, and self-awareness. Can you share your reflections on writing this section of the book and the cultural considerations that you made?
[00:39:59] Yumi Stynes: Mm.
[00:39:59] Winnie Adamson: Yumi, did you wanna start?
[00:40:01] Yumi Stynes: Yeah, there's almost a infinite number of considerations to be made when you think about culture. Mm-hmm. If you think about religion, for instance, you might have a very different, um, sense of what's modest or what's not, um, what sort of, uh, sexual activities you might wanna engage in prior to marriage, for instance.
[00:40:18] But then there's other universally agreed upon things like, um, for instance, hair. So it's, it, it is such a common experience for a Black woman's hair to be touched against her will.
[00:40:31] Winnie Adamson: Mm-hmm.
[00:40:32] Yumi Stynes: A- and yet it is ... Nobody would come up to me and touch my hair without me smacking their hand away, right?
[00:40:37] Right. So why is it okay for some person to be on the receiving end of this behavior? It, it's actually not, and yet some people will cross boundaries all the time. So part of writing the books has to be considering the, this huge spectrum of, of different experiences and trying to weave those in. Because, you know, boundaries might exist for one person that other people don't see them, those boundaries for a different person.
[00:41:02] Similarly, when we were writing, for instance, um, Welcome to Your Period, we had to consider: what is it like to have your period and be a wheelchair user? And how do we tell that story? So with all of these examples, the, the best thing that we could do is not try and put ourselves into someone's shoes as
[00:41:19] Well, that is very helpful as a writer, but it would be actually to speak to that person. Mm. So to find people who menstruate, who are in wheelchairs and say, "Can you tell us what it's like? You know, what, what would you say to the, the younger person who hasn't started to menstruate yet that we can put into the book as, as a bit of a, an inside scoop," you know?
[00:41:40] Mm-hmm. So, so all that stuff was, became very, very important to how we write these books.
[00:41:46] Dr Melissa Kang: Mm-hmm. Yeah. I'll just add to that, that we really made a- as big an effort as we each could to talk to young people- Who had a range of abilities, disabilities, you know, diverse gender identities, diverse sex characteristics.
[00:42:05] And I think we did end up with a really diverse group of young people for, particularly for Welcome to Sex. Um, but in fact for all of the books. Trans young people. I just want people to know though that those young people were ... They self-identified how they wanted to be named or not named in the book.
[00:42:24] So it's not necessarily evident- Mm ... that the person that we're quoting was a trans woman or a trans man. Mm. Or had a variation of sex characteristics. So I think that's important for people to appreciate- Mm ... that we followed their lead. Um, I think for me it's really helped that I have always identified as a mixed race, uh, person, and that
[00:42:49] I lived in a truly multicultural society growing up in Malaysia, and it was very different and weird coming to Australia where I was one of two Asians in a school of about 1,000 students. Um, and I felt very sidelined and a bit strange. And, um, so I think having that lived experience through my adolescence has, I think, I like to think, has really helped me sit and listen to young people and have their experience inform me and guide me rather than the other way around.
[00:43:25] Winnie Adamson: Mm. Yeah. . It's come through so clearly. Um, and also that, you know, there is lived experience of young people in the books.
[00:43:34] Um, safe sex is so much more than STIs or unplanned pregnancy prevention.
[00:43:40] And the World Health Organization does state that sexual health is about wellbeing, not merely the absence of disease. And in the Welcome to Sex book, um, you talk about safe sex also including looking after your body, heart, mind, and spirit, and about valuing yourself and who you are, and I really love this.
[00:43:57] And I think of a lot of young people and people in my generation who would have really benefited if they'd been taught about this, um, from such an earlier age. And it's this knowledge around safe sex that empowers and protects young people from abuse, and leans really nicely into teaching about sex with a pleasure-centered focus.
[00:44:17] The very first section of the book, defines sex as anything with your body that feels sexy and includes pleasure, and I just love that. And you have questions and case studies in the book, including questions around the mechanics of sex and how to have sex, as well as how to give and receive pleasure.
[00:44:33] So what were the processes in answering these questions using sex-positive, inclusive, and pleasure-centered focused principles?
[00:44:40] Dr Melissa Kang: I think for me it wasn't even conscious. I think I've, I don't know why, but I've always been a sex positive person. I grew up with, kind of sexually conservative father.
[00:44:50] He wasn't conservative in any other aspect of life. But certainly when it came to ... I had a, I have an older brother, and with the two of us very close in age, there was this huge gender difference in what was acceptable and not acceptable in terms of what we wore, what we did, who we were allowed to go out with.
[00:45:07] So that was part of my later adolescence, which I think really had an impact on ... And, and I felt even from a much younger age, even though I was not in, involved in any relationships, I felt like sex is great. Like, I didn't know what it was exactly, but it's great and, and why would anyone not be sex positive?
[00:45:26] It doesn't it's not reflected necessarily in any behavior that you engage with.
[00:45:31] Yumi Stynes: Mm.
[00:45:31] Dr Melissa Kang: Um, I, I would say I was a very average sort of developer, but- Just thinking, well, of course, one would be sex positive because that's kind of part of who we are. So I- Mm ... I don't think it was something that ever entered my mind not to be sex positive.
[00:45:48] Winnie Adamson: Mm.
[00:45:48] Yumi Stynes: Melissa led the way with Welcome to Sex, so that was one where she was definitely piloting the book, um, from start to finish. And, uh, I, I think it drew very heavily on her l- work as a clinician and also as d- as Dolly Doctor. But mine is the same. I think it's very anti-capitalist to be sex positive.
[00:46:08] It's something that you can do for free with people that you love. You're not consuming, you're not polluting the environment. Um, and it's very much about attunement, and I love the idea of that. I think it feeds into friendship as well. It's about tuning into somebody in a quite selfless way, and being very open to what they like and w- to what their responses are in a way that very much humanizes the other person, which is just like
[00:46:30] It's actually really pure love, isn't it? If you can be so receptive to their needs. It doesn't mean we're getting married, but it, it does mean I care. Mm. And I think that's so wonderful to, to be in that moment and s- to say, "I care about you and I care about your responses. I care about what you like." It frightens me to think that there are so many people out there who can be so embodied in themselves without showing that consideration to their sex partners, and to just be- Mm-hmm
[00:46:56] "I, I'm gonna take what I want." And I really hope that in the way that we communicate these stories and this, this guidebook, people do kinda land in, in the intention of how do I, sure, seek out my pleasure and my fun, but also how do I make sure that my partner, their priority and their fun is safely considered at, at all times as well?
[00:47:20] And it's so in the heart of consent, and it's so in the heart of, of great partnered sex. Mm.
[00:47:25] Maddy Stratten: Yeah. And really thinking about the language that we're using, and we've talked about that throughout this episode, but I'm finding my mind keep going back a step to us as professionals and I guess, you know, how we're talking about sex, bodies, and consent to our own peers, what language we're using when we share or interpret young people's experiences.
[00:47:45] Are we staying curious? Are we staying up to date with the latest resources that young people are engaging with? And I mean more broadly, like are we role modeling the sex positive and inclusive values to our young people? We know that from the evidence that adults' attitudes, language, comfort levels directly shape young people's access to accurate information, help-seeking, and sense of safety.
[00:48:08] At the same time, we're bringing our own personal experiences and beliefs and practices to these conversations, as you mentioned earlier. So I think there's a real question here around, if we're consciously role modeling the sex positive inclusive values we hope that young people will experience in the world.
[00:48:26] Winnie Adamson: Yeah, absolutely. And hearing you say that, Maddy, makes me also think of our first episode on the couch for the year with Mai Nguyen. Um, and she shared a really empowering story about compassion and respect, helped her find common ground with a colleague when talking about transness and cultural identity.
[00:48:42] Maddy Stratten: Mm.
[00:48:42] Winnie Adamson: And felt like such a powerful example of what's possible when having conversations and feeling uncomfortable or unfamiliar. Mm. Um, Melissa and Yumi, how would you encourage colleagues, peers, and even friends to approach conversations about sex, bodies, identity, and consent, particularly navigating complex conversations with passion and respect?
[00:49:02] Yumi Stynes: I think starting with a consent question is really helpful. Like, "Do you feel comfortable to talk about this right now?" Mm-hmm. Or, "I wanted to disclose something that might be traumatizing. Are you in a situation-" Mm ... where you feel like hearing about anything like that?" And as it is with consent questions like that, you have to be prepared for them to say, "No, I don't wanna hear about your freaking story today."
[00:49:22] And you have to receive that with grace, because that is why you asked the question, so that they could have the option to say no. So that, uh, and in even just, like, you know, modeling that in that way is really, really positive for the people around you to say, "Oh, I said no to Yumi, and she, uh, she listened."
[00:49:38] Yeah. And she completely let go of that, and that wasn't the something that she was like, "Oh, why not? Can we please? Please?" So doing that is really good. And then I think, um, you know, I mean, I have this with my friends, is s- I have a subset of my friends who really get squeamish if I bring up sex, particularly in a personal way, like about me or about them.
[00:49:58] Mm-hmm. And I respect that. If they, if they don't wanna have that, those conversations, uh, it's not for me to thrust them upon them. But sometimes it might be beneficial. Mm-hmm. So that's when I have to weigh it up and say, "What, how are you feeling about if we have this chat right now?" Mm-hmm. Um, and the- and that, that way you can push it a little bit.
[00:50:16] But you have to respect where people sit, right? So if they don't wanna do those conversations at any time. In my work at Ladies We Need To Talk, we're often having those conversations, and it's often with experts who are absolutely down with it, but it's also with people who are case studies. So they are not experts.
[00:50:31] They do not work in sexual education or sexual assault or any kind of medical field, and they might be coming on to talk about something that happened with their body in a really personal way, and that is really about making sure that they feel safe- Mm-hmm ... that they understand where the boundaries are, that this will be broadcast, that, you know, their, somebody, a friend might recognize their voice, and that they are okay with that.
[00:50:54] And I think once they're given the permission to make- Mm ... those decisions in a calm way, they're not under pressure, w- the, the microphone is not
[00:51:02] on-
[00:51:03] Mm ... then they can show up to that interview and really deliver. And what I do find time and again is once they've been prepared and they've, um, arrived pr- pr- prepared to share- It's often an incredible unshaming where they feel-
[00:51:20] really elated. They feel weight has been lifted from them. They pr- pretty much float out of the studio. Mm. So, so unburdened, and they are changed. People from these conversations, you see their molecules rearrange. Mm. They're like, "Oh my God, I've let that go. I am free of that shame- Mm ... and that burden now."
[00:51:38] And you can see them step out a- and c- literally cross a threshold to a new phase in their life, and it's absolutely delightful to behold.
[00:51:46] Dr Melissa Kang: Mm.
[00:51:47] Winnie Adamson: Yeah. Thanks so much, Yumi. I love that. Um, wise words, and I'm sure many of the colleagues listening will now be more inspired. Mm.
[00:51:56] Um how can we, have conversations with peers if we hear misinformation when we're working with young people as well?
[00:52:04] Dr Melissa Kang: I think it depends on how high or low the stakes are at the time. So I've heard misinformation around things like myths around contraception, for example, that perhaps a colleague might not be completely up to speed with, and they might be about to give an education session to a group of young people, for example.
[00:52:24] So I might, you know, just mention something that's more up to date. If you hear something that could potentially create trauma or distress for either a young person or another colleague, I think it's important to try and intervene, you know, more, more rapidly. And, and that might really be making a ruse for sort of, "Look, quick, come, I need to talk to you about something."
[00:52:49] You know, get them away and have a, a chat like that. I have to say, I've never had to do that. I've been very lucky with the colleagues I've worked with over the year, years. And I think it's probably a reflection of the fact that, uh, I've mostly worked in youth health spaces , where there's a lot of, you know, a lot of inclusion around young people's perspectives and what's important for them.
[00:53:09] So I, I guess that's the short answer. I could ... I, I often talk about this topic. Um, I could go on for hours, but, but just to quickly answer your question.
[00:53:21] Maddy Stratten: Yeah. And I think also, like,, building in that intentional self-care and self-protection into these conversations because, you know, it, it is a really bold thing to be an active bystander and with a colleague.
[00:53:33] And, you know, it's quite brave to be able to have those conversations in that way. So building in that self-care and, and self-protection I think is, um, a really important way to kind of wrap up that conversation. Look, it's been such an inspiring and empowering and, and really hopeful conversation, so thank you so much for, um, both of you for your time and for giving us so many takeaways and really practical, um, things we can take back to our work.
[00:53:59] Uh, we are coming to the end of our chat On The Couch. We want to leave some space for you both to share any last thoughts for our listeners to continue to engage and, um, have these conversations.
[00:54:12] Yumi Stynes: My, my final thought would be that this stuff has always got the potential to be scary, but it also has huge potential to be funny.
[00:54:20] Mm-hmm. So if you can lean into the fun and the funny of having these conversations, then I think you'll set yourself up to succeed, and also to understand that :you don't always know every answer, so you can always c- keep learning and growing. In every book that Melissa and I have written, I've learnt so much
[00:54:38] You know, and I've come out with so much more information than I did at the start of the writing process. So it doesn't matter how old you are or what field you work in, you can always learn more.
[00:54:48] Winnie Adamson: Mm.
[00:54:49] Dr Melissa Kang: Yeah. And look, I'd just add to that that being eternally curious is, is a really important part of this work, and never making assumptions.
[00:54:58] Being aware of your own discomfort, as well as your own trauma if you have any, um, and, and lived experience. So just being really aware of that and being brave enough to, draw lines and say, "I don't want to talk about this anymore." Uh, on other occasions. You know, just, just being respectfully curious in order to help advance.
[00:55:17] And I think, you know, :we're only as good as health professionals or educators or promoters We're only as good as the, the least served population of young people, and I think that's where I always turn my sights. Who are the least served? Who are the most, um, young people with, whose needs are not being met by the institutions, be they schools, education, health and so on.
[00:55:41] And, and, and by constantly thinking about that, I think that just helps me to keep alive and curious.
[00:55:48] Winnie Adamson: Thanks for listening to On The Couch. We create this podcast because we're allies in actively challenging discrimination, microaggressions, and exclusionary behaviors.
[00:56:13] Maddy Stratten: We wanna create spaces where people feel safe to share their thoughts, knowing that they will be heard and respected. Such an environment fosters collaboration, innovation, and contributes to a more inclusive society.
[00:56:25] Winnie Adamson: Follow us on your favorite podcast platform. That way, you will receive every new episode when it's released. You can also help us grow the podcast by giving us a rating and leaving us a review.
[00:56:36] Maddy Stratten: Connect with us on Instagram, Facebook, and LinkedIn, and share On The Couch with your friends, colleagues, and family.
[00:56:42]Winnie Adamson: On The Couch is made by the team at Caddyshack Project. Until next time, peace, love, and protection