On The Couch with Lauren French
[00:00:00] Maddy Stratten: Hi, and welcome to another episode of On The Couch, where we collaborate with experts, practitioners, authors, advocates, and influencers to explore current social themes, sex positive topics, and share stories and insights that matter.
[00:00:24] Winnie Adamson: This podcast was recorded on Aboriginal country. We acknowledge the traditional custodians of the lands that were never ceded on which we live, work, and record upon.
[00:00:33] Maddy Stratten: We pay our respect to elders past and present, and to those who may be visiting our website or listening to our podcast today.
[00:00:40] Winnie Adamson: While listening, we encourage you to practice good self-care, and of course, check the show notes for further information.
[00:00:45] Maddy Stratten: Wherever you are, whatever you're doing ...
[00:00:47] Winnie Adamson: enjoy this episode of On The Couch
[00:00:49] I'm Winnie and I'm joined by Lauren French today, and we are gonna be yarning about Indigenous knowledge and approaches that are transforming sex education by centering inclusive pleasure and culturally safe ways of supporting wellbeing and preventing harm. So it's such a pleasure to welcome you on the couch, Lauren.
[00:01:10] Lauren French: Thanks, Winnie.
[00:01:11] Winnie Adamson: As you know, Lauren, we really like using the concepts Fields of Existence and Coordinates of Belonging by Co-Culture Communications to introduce our guests.
[00:01:20] And these concepts really demonstrate that our beings are a field of activity made up of the stories we've been told, our ancestors that have existed, the land under our feet, and the places that we stand, and how these all enforce who we are in this moment as contextual beings. So Lauren, how do you define and locate yourself, and what are your coordinates of belonging?
[00:01:40] Lauren French: Hmm. Thanks, Winnie. I really love that this is how you start, uh, 'cause I think it's so much the practice of First Nations people of meeting, connecting across many different, uh, avenues and planes. Uh, so for me, I must locate myself first in my upbringing and where I grew up. So I grew up on Larrakia Country up north in Darwin, in the warmth and sun, uh, which is very much not where I currently am because it is very cold where I'm currently sitting.
[00:02:10] But in growing up, I got to grow up in sweaty, humid, tropical landscapes of Darwin. Uh, I grew up and lived in the same house that my mum and all of my aunts and uncles grew up in. Uh, so my mum is the fourth child of seven, uh, in an incredibly large, amazing Chinese Aboriginal family. Uh, so my mum, Rebecca Lee, and my father, Ken French,
[00:02:36] And I'm the eldest daughter for them. Uh, so what I find particularly important from that note is I got to grow up in an intergenerational household. So I grew up, as I said, in the same household my mum got to grow up in, in the same house, actually, lived within the same room as her for quite a while.
[00:02:56] Winnie Adamson: Mm.
[00:02:56] Lauren French: Uh, and so in that house it was me, my sister, my mum, my dad, and my poppy.
[00:03:03] So my mum's father. This is Eric Lee. Uh, and he was again, sort of had this huge amazing family, had a huge amazing family around him. The house, uh, that unfortunately no longer stands, but was a house that went through Cyclone Tracy, which is something that my family went through in the home that I then grew up in.
[00:03:23] So when my mum and her siblings grew up in that home, it was a two-story household. When I grew up in it, it was a one story household, as the cyclone removed the top story Uh, but I got to grow up in a space where our home was our home, but it was the meeting place of our family. Because it was our ancestral house, it meant that it was everyone's home, and it was Poppy's home first, and so that meant I had cousins, aunties, uncles, everyone always dropping into our space.
[00:03:55] So our space was a meeting place. I made many cups of tea for many a conversation that was had in the kitchen. Uh, and to paint a picture, the kitchen was an incredible fluorescent lime green-
[00:04:10] Winnie Adamson: Mm ...
[00:04:10] Lauren French: of another era completely. Uh, with e- everything was wood, so brown woods, and then the most fluorescent green, like all the cabinets, all the w- like everything.
[00:04:20] Uh, and then one of those incredibly, uh, unique- I will say tile feature near the kind of sink area. But to me, that's home. That's where I grew up in. Mm. Uh, and so my, the other kind of piece of that, how we came to Darwin, so I'm a Karajarri woman. And so my nana, so my poppy's mother, uh, was born at Anna Plains Station, which is in Western Australia.
[00:04:48] Uh, but she was removed from family. She was taken at five years old, uh, and taken to Beagle Bay Mission, uh, and was part of some of the earliest moments in our history of Stolen Generation, uh, removal.
[00:05:03] Winnie Adamson: Mm.
[00:05:03] Lauren French: Uh, her brother was taken to another, uh, mission and space. Uh, and through her work, kind of growing up in the mission and then growing up as kind of a household servant, made her way to Darwin, ended up kind of actually coming into, uh, a very large Larrakia and Aboriginal family in Darwin.
[00:05:24] Uh, and so we've got a lot of ties and connections in those spaces, as well as for our, you know, uh, the Chinese part of our heritage. Uh, our family also then comes from a very large Chinese family in Darwin, and one of the oldest Chinese families. And actually, if anyone's ever in Darwin and you go to the Chung Wah Society, they have a museum there, and they have scrolls of all of the, like, quote-un-quote, "original" kind of Chinese families that went to Darwin.
[00:05:50] Mm. Uh, and you can find my name. If you go and look at, you have to find the largest scroll there, 'cause our family's the largest- Mm ... um, descendant family, which is a point of, uh, pride and mild bragging.
[00:06:01] Winnie Adamson: Mm.
[00:06:02] Lauren French: But you will be able to find me on that scroll. Uh, and so I, but for both sides of that family, when I think of locating myself, I grew up in a family of warmth, of incredible staunch and strong matriarchs and women.
[00:06:18] So my mum's one of seven, as I said. There is only one boy in that family. Uh, and I grew up sort of surrounded by the most incredibly powerful, loud, and proud women- Mm ... that I'm very proud to have descended from. Uh, uh, I moved to Melbourne, and that's where I'm currently locating myself, so I live in Naarm.
[00:06:38] Uh, I've been here for 10 years, over, just about 10 years now. Uh, and a kind of common part of a lot of, uh, young people who grow up up north is to move for university, to move for knowledge. Uh, there is, I would say, like, both truth and some assumption in the limitations of staying, uh, up north for learning and opportunity.
[00:07:04] Uh, and so, but many of us move. We also decide we wanna experience this winter that we kept hearing about. This cold. Don't know if it's all that it was cracked up to be or what it was told of me. I like wearing- Mm ... a coat and a scarf every now and then, but can be a bit much. Mm. Which is also very funny because I feel once I moved to Naarm was actually some of the first times that I was able to really strengthen my identity as a First Nations woman, as my connections with mob, 'cause it was the first time I was making really strong community connections outside of my family or outside of, like, the idea of family.
[00:07:43] And also Darwin, you know, is not a particularly large place, and so you're kind of very much known, and your family is very much known. Uh, versus when I moved to Naarm I kind of was creating further circles of culture and in- and connectedness off Country, uh, in a way while still having huge amounts of yearning for Country.
[00:08:04] And I think that's how I also ended up doing work that was for community and with community, 'cause I am constantly pulled with a need to contribute, as many of us are. Uh, and so in doing that, that's kind of how I've found spaces to contribute and found spaces where, you know, I think for some people when you're off Country, you almost spend more time trying to have connection because the connection isn't necessarily as simple as below your feet or just looking out the window.
[00:08:39] You know, there's almost, you look out into those spaces, and while Country and nature here can be incredibly grounding and supporting, it creates yearning because my Country looks different. I don't get red dirt here the way that I do when I'm home. Uh, and so there's, there's a pull that you always feel.
[00:08:59] So even though I'm creating an incredible life, uh, in Naarm uh, the pull never is removed. It's always still there, and it gets tighter at times. And when I go home and I come back, it loosens the string a little bit, and it gives me a bit more time until I'm kind of, you know, pulled back or that feeling of being pulled back.
[00:09:17] Uh-
[00:09:23] So yeah, that's probably the- Mm ... I think my two big locations that I think are really important.
[00:09:28] Winnie Adamson: Yeah. Thanks so much for sharing those yearnings. It's, you know, I think it really sets the tone for our conversation today, because I can see- Yeah in your work. Your culture and connection, and I love the stories of those really strong, bold women,. Yeah.
[00:09:45] Lauren French: Mm.
[00:09:46] Winnie Adamson: When we first met, we met at, the World Association of Sexual Health Congress, or WAS for short- We did ... when Maddy, Maddy and I attended in June 2025, so a whole year ago.
[00:09:57] Um, and we were just in awe of you and incredibly inspired by your work and words. And I love that you, um, mentioned your lime green kitchen, because in your keynote presentation, um, on the Churchill Fellowship, you took us to that lime green kitchen right at the beginning of your presentation- Yeah ... and where you grew up.
[00:10:15] And us in the audience really felt that sense of community, and you really painted such a beautiful place of what that looked like for you.
[00:10:24] Lauren French: Mm.
[00:10:24] Winnie Adamson: And that just speaks so deeply to your work that centers community, culture and strengthens those intergenerational learnings and healings.
[00:10:33] Lauren French: Mm.
[00:10:33] Winnie Adamson: So Lauren, you are a sexologist with a Bachelor's in psychology.
[00:10:38] Mm-hmm. And we're really interested in what led you through your career path you've taken. And for our listeners, Lauren used to be the previous head of education and community development with Body Safety Australia, a non-for-profit organization specializing in child sexual abuse prevention, LGBTQIA+ equity and inclusivity, consent and respectful relationships education.
[00:11:00] And more recently, Lauren, you've stepped back into clinical practice as a clinical sexologist and sex therapist at Ships Psychology, which is really exciting. And can you tell us a bit about what led you to this change?
[00:11:14] Lauren French: Yeah, of course. And I think this, this field and sector is so, uh, incredibly broad, and so often- Mm
[00:11:23] uh, people can end up in similar spaces, similar roles, and our path has been completely different. Um, you know, we're all kind of finding different jigsaw pieces to the career and the spaces that we're developing. Um, I might do, like, two things. So I'll talk about where I am now, but to kind of take a small step back, uh, I, as I was studying my Master's of sexology, um, at, when I started volunteering for Body Safety Australia, so that was eight years ago.
[00:11:50] Uh, I was with the organization for eight years, and through that time I started as a volunteer. There were four of us Um, in the entire organisation at the time that I started, and then I came on board as an educator. Uh, and by the time I left at the beginning of the year when I was the head of education and community development, we had a team of almost 30.
[00:12:12] Uh, and in that eight years, the amount of growth and opportunity that we were able to sit with was really incredible. Uh, but it was a space where I'd been for almost the entirety of my 20s. Uh- Mm ... and I had been able to have incredible opportunity to do work with community, and I managed a team, a large team of educators there.
[00:12:33] Uh, and throughout that work, I think also one of the, uh, reasons that I was able to stay for so long and continue to develop my practice with the organisation and the amount of education and teaching I was doing across schools across Australia was also because I was able to have other opportunities that fed other pieces of, uh, w- work that was really satisfying.
[00:12:57] So like I did work with, like youth social change work, like specific First Nations youth social change work. I did clinical practice while there, and I did a Churchill Fellowship. And so I was able to kind of have these moments of, uh, coming in and out of what can sometimes be quite set work.
[00:13:15] Uh, and- When I kind of got to the position I was in, it was absolutely incredible. And also, what I realised was I both created a bit of a ceiling within the org. I'd been there for so long, ... there was space for opportunities to come for others. Uh, and also I realised I was really ready to, be a learner again and really develop skills and, uh, just like branch out into some other spaces- Mm
[00:13:43] with all of the knowledge that I'd developed over eight years.
[00:13:45] Winnie Adamson: Mm.
[00:13:46] Lauren French: Uh, and I think anyone that's in maybe a position of management or team leading or those sort of things, there's so much satisfaction and joy in supporting and creating opportunities for others. Um- Mm ... and also it can be really exciting and, and to step into a space to look at that for yourself.
[00:14:02] Mm. And so, you know, that's the choice that I've now made, and part of that is going back, back to do more clinical practice because it's a part of work that I really love. Uh, I think I've spent quite a number of the past couple of years really focusing on, uh, impact at quite a, like, you know, like a large scale working with like whole schools, whole classrooms, whole communities.
[00:14:26] Uh, and I think post my Churchill Fellowship, I wanted to come back to some individual work and work- Mm ... that really kind of centers healing. Uh, and for me, that's really something that I wanna do through clinical work. So hence why I've, um- Mm.
[00:14:42] Winnie Adamson: Mm ...
[00:14:42] Lauren French: uh, gone back to that clinical practice. Mm. Uh, and SHIPS is an incredible space.
[00:14:47] Um, and they've welcomed me really warmly and to- Mm ... be able to do that.
[00:14:52] Winnie Adamson: Mm. I love that. I love the recognition of just continuing learning. Um, yeah, I think it's so important that we keep doing that in our careers, right? Like, we can get- Mm ... in places where it just feels a bit like, "Okay, where am I?" Um, it.
[00:15:09] This can feel like a huge big leap, but it's really cool to see. Yeah.
[00:15:12] Lauren French: Yeah, definitely.
[00:15:13] Winnie Adamson: And embrace and trust that the world and the people around you have got you, right?
[00:15:19] Lauren French: Well, yeah, and I think, - For myself, whether it's, you know, if we talk about having, like, knowings or being led- Mm-hmm
[00:15:26] by ancestors or family or just... the, the beings of the world. I think, you know, where I'm listening to the seasons of my own life and realise that, oh- Mm ... I think i- it's really powerful when you realize you're coming to the end of a season, and then quite exciting when you realize you're transitioning into a new season.
[00:15:42] Um- Mm-hmm ... and I think for me, that's ... I'm in that period of transition into a new season, which is really exciting.
[00:15:48] Winnie Adamson: Mm.
[00:15:49] Lauren French: Terrifying in some ways, but really exciting.
[00:15:51] Winnie Adamson: I love that, the seasons of my life. I'm gonna keep that in the back of my brain for something
[00:15:56] Lauren French: Yeah ... I think some- people get really, like, attached to age with- Mm
[00:16:00] the seasons, um- Mm-hmm ... as if ... an- even, even though I said, like, "Oh, most of my 20s," or this sort of thing.
[00:16:05] Winnie Adamson: Mm.
[00:16:06] Lauren French: I don't think it's age dependent. I think it is just that once you feel, oh, a season is shifting-
[00:16:11] Winnie Adamson: Mm ...
[00:16:12] Lauren French: and changing, and that can be really short. Like, I feel ... I remember when I, um, moved to
[00:16:18] Naarm,
[00:16:19] first year of uni, and then I went home to Darwin for, like, a couple of months in between, like, first and second year, as per, like, most uni students.
[00:16:27] Mm. And I re- And it was only in that few months that I feel I had a really big season of life change.
[00:16:33] Winnie Adamson: Mm.
[00:16:33] Lauren French: Uh, and so that was, like, a really short time period versus maybe now looking at, oh, wow, I had, like, an eight-year season probably, and now I'm- Mm ... going into a completely different season. Um-
[00:16:44] Winnie Adamson: Mm. Mm.
[00:16:46] I love how you work across prevention and education and clinical practice, and you speak a lot about respectful relationships and sex education, which I will refer to as RSE for short as I move forward. Um, and that RSE that really centers pleasure and removes shame and stigma to empower young people to make their own informed decisions about their health, relationships, and experiences, and that's an approach I really resonate with.
[00:17:11] And here On The Couch, and more broadly the work we do at Caddyshack, we talk a lot about shame, stigma, and discrimination, and how these really impact the communities that we work with. Mm. We've also had guests On The Couch explore, um, comprehensive RSE, like Professor Jennifer Power- Mm ... Dr. Giselle Woodley, Dr.
[00:17:30] Sarah Vrankovich, Tom and Adie from the Sticky Q's podcast-
[00:17:33] Lauren French: Mm ...
[00:17:33] Winnie Adamson: Katrina Marson, Dr. Melissa Kang, and Yumi Stynes. Mm. And for our listeners, jump on our website 'cause you can find all of those recordings of those podcast episodes there. But shame and stigma and discrimination do create significant barriers for people to access sexual health services as well as quality RSE.
[00:17:52] And those of us working in the space are constantly challenging and trying to break down those barriers. So with that in mind, what does an inclusive, shame-free, and pleasure-focused approach to RSE involve, and why is it so important for preventing STIs, unplanned pregnancies, and sexual violence?
[00:18:10] Lauren French: Mm. Thank you for putting me in with, like, the, the list of all of those incredible people.
[00:18:15] And yes, if people haven't listened to them, you 100% should. They're amazing. Uh, I think within this the first thing I always want us to help shift our lens, um, and not to, judge the question, but more 'cause I think this is the, the way this question is worded to me often, and I think a lot of people in the sector will, will kind of come from this angle of- Mm
[00:18:36] of, uh, you know, how do we do inclusive, shame-free, pleasure-focused approaches, but for the cause of preventing STIs- Mm ... unplanned pregnancy, sexual violence? And does really comprehensive RSE do all of those things? Yes, it does, but I always like to ground us in, like, the World Health definition- Mm ... of sexual health, and the fact that we cannot just look at this from a disease-focused lens- Mm
[00:19:03] and from a, you know, like if we're thinking about sexual health, sexual health is not just the absence of disease.
[00:19:10] Winnie Adamson: Mm.
[00:19:10] Lauren French: And that is a really deficit lens that we tend to look through in this sector. I also understand it. It's much easier and a bit more palatable for people if you're thinking about saying- Mm
[00:19:21] "Well, I work in sexual health." And then you, you go, "Oh, you know, you know, BBVs, STIs, you know, pregnancy." Mm. And people go, "Oh, yep, yep, yep." Like, that's much more- Mm ... palatable versus going, "Yeah, I work in sexual health. You know, pleasure."
[00:19:36] Winnie Adamson: Mm.
[00:19:37] Lauren French: Pleasure, pleasure is the capital P word that makes people quite uncomfortable.
[00:19:41] Uh, but it's critical that we shift that deficit framing Mm-hmm. Because we cannot do this inclusive work if the only reason it's being done is because we just don't want people, you know, to be unwell. Obviously we don't want that, but sexual health is so much larger and all-encompassing, and I think sometimes the box that we actually get ourselves stuck in is just aiming for the lack of disease.
[00:20:08] Mm-hmm. 'Cause then often when I work with young people and, you know, older people, and we go, "Okay, well I, I, I don't have disease," but, like, what else? What else- Mm ... does actually sexual health look like? You know, we want young people, we want everyone to know that there is experiences of joy. We want people to have incredible relationships, not just relationships that don't have violence.
[00:20:31] You know, it's like we don't want the bar on the floor. We actually wanna be thinking about what are we aiming for and moving towards. Um, and so, when we're doing education, it's about going how do we aim higher from that?
[00:20:47] Winnie Adamson: Mm.
[00:20:47] Lauren French: Uh, whenever I teach, I really wanna make sure that everyone in that room feels seen and represented in what I'm talking about.
[00:20:55] Mm. And I think when we think about inclusive practice, uh, when you do inclusive practice really well, you're actually just inviting everyone in. Mm. And instead of kind of shutting doors or creating frameworks that people have to fit themselves into that don't quite fit, like a too small jumper, we're actually just- Mm
[00:21:12] opening a door and going, "Actually, we're inviting everyone in." We're just creating more and more opportunities of inviting in, uh, rather than having to go, "Well, your experience is X, so you have to be in the X box, and yours is Y, and you have to be in the Y box." Mm. Like, actually, how do we invite in and make it easier to step through the doors?
[00:21:33] Uh, we have so much shame wrapped around sexuality and sexual health and just being sexual beings. Mm. And at the same time I always like to flip that because while, yes, we have so much, uh, stigma around sex, for our amazing asexual folk, there is also incredible shame and stigma around not fitting into- Mm
[00:21:55] sexual models. And so it's a bit of like damned if you do, damned if you don't-
[00:22:00] Winnie Adamson: Mm ...
[00:22:00] Lauren French: kind of a space. Mm. And so, , it doesn't create any real winners. And so if we think about, about removing shame for all people and all experiences of sex and sexuality, uh, as a human need, uh, we create more space for curiosity.
[00:22:17] Mm. And to me, the key of inclusive shame-free pleasure-focused RSE is curiosity, 'cause that's how we better connect with people. Mm. We learn what they truly wanna know about and what they care about, not just what they've been told to care about.
[00:22:34] Winnie Adamson: Mm.
[00:22:35] Lauren French: And when you speak to young people all the time, they've been told to care about STIs and unplanned pregnancies.
[00:22:40] Mm. And they've been told to care about, what often gets put as, like, the monster scary things that are gonna ruin your life. And that's, like, what young people have told me, that that's the language.
[00:22:50] Winnie Adamson: Mm-hmm.
[00:22:51] Lauren French: Versus there's not a lot of space of going, "Hey, where's, like, pleasure? What does- Mm ... how does pleasure, you know, what does that even look like, uh, for our relationships, for our world, you know?"
[00:23:00] Winnie Adamson: Mm.
[00:23:01] Lauren French: And so reclaiming our right to pleasure, and, you know, both sexual and non-sexual pleasure actually-
[00:23:08] Winnie Adamson: Mm ...
[00:23:09] Lauren French: really helps us move away from, like, Western moralistic, very oppressive ideas- Mm ... that kind of really, uh, infiltrate sexual health a lot of the time. And so also help us, like, start to decolonize our sphere, 'cause- Mm
[00:23:23] you know, when we say we want to value and prioritize pleasure, it's quite radical.
[00:23:28] Winnie Adamson: Mm.
[00:23:28] Lauren French: Shouldn't be, but it does tend to be.
[00:23:31] Winnie Adamson: Mm. I love that. Like, pleasure is how we'll decolonize our worlds. Um, I think teaching from that pleasure-centered approach- Mm ... is so valuable. Like, it really brings young people into the conversation more, openly.
[00:23:51] Yes. Because why do we have sex? Because it feels good. Like, it's kind of the most simple thing when you really think about it, but there's just so much external pressure and-
[00:24:02] Lauren French: Mm ...
[00:24:03] Winnie Adamson: you know, views that really bring so much complexity to it. So I really love that, and I love you sharing the World Health Organisation definition of sexual health.
[00:24:13] 'Cause as sexual health promotion officers, we talk a lot about that and how our approach to sexual health is so much more than just preventing STIs or unplanned pregnancies. It's really all about- Mm ... relationships, pleasure, identity, connection, wellbeing, and feeling really empowered to make those choices for ourselves in our own lives.
[00:24:34] Lauren French: Mm.
[00:24:34] Winnie Adamson: Our health and wellbeing are really influenced by so many interconnected parts of who we are, and we can't really separate those things from one another. And in your work, you talk a lot about s- seeing a person as a whole, not just through- Mm ... that lens of a particular issue. Mm. So in your work, how do you center the whole person?
[00:24:54] Lauren French: Yeah. This, for some people this might seem like the most obvious thing in the world. Mm. Uh, but we tend to segment people, and we tend to like to go, "Oh, I'm, I'm talking to this person about one particular thing." Maybe it is STIs. And so we've segmented their being and their history and where they're coming in and having this, like, meeting with us into this, like, one little piece.
[00:25:19] Mm. And so I think we need to be really clear that any time when we're meeting people, they are bringing their whole selves into the space, and so are we. Mm. Even though we might be wearing a professional hat, a work hat, a, you know, whatever that is, you're still bringing your entire self, your history, your, coordinates of being- Mm
[00:25:39] you're bringing all of those coordinates in. And that, and that person you're talking to is as well. But in our, you know, Western spaces, often we're taught to just show a piece of it. Mm. You know, oh, okay, this is professional hat, so you get professional little segment. Mm. And the person's coming in going, "Well, this is health, so this is gonna be my little health segment."
[00:25:58] Mm. And we go, okay, well, actually, there's so much more to us. And so I always think about how do I create a safe space and build trust and relationships with people, even in short periods of time- Mm ... so that I'm able to see more elements of their whole being, that they feel safe to actually express more elements of their whole being.
[00:26:18] And sometimes that needs to be modeled, so sometimes that's in doing, you know, I am sharing more and-
[00:26:24] Winnie Adamson: Mm ...
[00:26:24] Lauren French: uh, you know, within, as much as we say, there's like still within professional boundaries and, ways that- Mm ... aren't putting pressure on the person. But just, just like giving a permission of yes- Mm
[00:26:35] I am this sexologist and this is my role, and also I'm a human and I have interconnected facets, and so do you. Mm. And I, you are here for a particular reason, but I'm seeing you as a person. Mm. You know, this might be like historical things that we value with our family and ourselves. Mm-hmm. It might be environmental things,
[00:26:58] But it's it's often coming back to a value of importance. Um- Mm ... and I'm very aware in like educational spaces and when I was, you know, doing a lot of education in schools, it's like you have 45 minutes or you have like- Mm ... one hour to do 100 things, and it's the curriculum and it's like this kind of little tiny scope.
[00:27:15] Mm. Uh, and success looks really particular. But I think we also need to be really clear that when we're giving information to young people, to, to anyone, we're, we're giving them information often that they only want like a tiny bit of right now, but they're probably gonna need the rest- Mm ... of it later.
[00:27:32] Winnie Adamson: Mm-hmm.
[00:27:32] Lauren French: And so we have to think about, okay, well, the more I'm seeing this whole person, the more I'm able to understand their timeline of information- Mm-hmm ... and follow their curiosity. And I think it also alleviates some of the pressure of, "Oh, I have to give all of this information to you right now because this is the only opportunity and chance," rather than f- following the curiosity that that person has- Mm-hmm
[00:27:56] that you have and what's needed in the moment.
[00:27:59] Winnie Adamson: Mm. Yeah, I love that. Makes me think as well, like, there's a bigger impact than just on those young people. Like how, how does centering that whole person impact then their families and educators and that whole community?
[00:28:15] Lauren French: Yeah. Well, I think it ... Oh, I think it impacts the family and the educators because firstly of how it impacts the young people.
[00:28:22] Winnie Adamson: Mm.
[00:28:22] Lauren French: Because it creates more spaces to give permission to share openly. Mm. And so when young people are sharing openly, it gives all of the adults around them insight. Yeah. And I think, you know, so often in the work that I've done over the years, like, the question we always keep coming back to is like what are young people thinking about and doing, and what's their reasoning?
[00:28:42] And we're trying to-
[00:28:43] Winnie Adamson: Mm ...
[00:28:44] Lauren French: solve for problems without having honest conversations with young people around what the problem is or how it looks. And so when you're able to have more open curiosity and sharing of young people, it tells all of the adults what's important. Mm. Um, it helps tell the adults what's not important.
[00:29:03] Uh, it helps show the adults where the gaps are. Um, but I also think it really allows more freedom. For the families, for the educators in how we meet young people's needs. Mm-hmm. 'Cause I think we can get very restrictive in, as I said, like, those success models or to have I hit these points of the curriculum.
[00:29:24] Not to bag out curriculum, curriculum's really important- Mm-hmm ... it can do really great things. But I think when we're feeding that curiosity, that is critical to actually really creating, like, lifelong conversations with young people- Mm-hmm ... and open communication about RSE, 'cause RSE is a lifelong learning and a lifelong experience.
[00:29:42] Mm.
[00:29:42] Winnie Adamson: Mm.
[00:29:43] Lauren French: And I think when it's really restrictive to, "Well, you're 16, and so at 16 this is what we're telling you you need to know." And rather going, "Okay, you're at this moment in your world, and here's all the pieces that are you as a whole person. So like, what, what do you need? What's the curiosity?"
[00:30:01] Mm-hmm. And yes, we can hit these things, but like, what's gonna actually be the most impactful to you in this moment?
[00:30:07] Winnie Adamson: Mm. Curiosity is so important, and so important for, us as adults and us as parents- Mm ... as teachers. Like you said, it's a lifelong journey. Like, I work in the space, I'm still learning, you know?
[00:30:21] Yeah. Because there's so much to learn, and you go through those different seasons of your life.
[00:30:25] Lauren French: Mm-hmm.
[00:30:26] Winnie Adamson: And so you will take on different things, and you'll kind of understand things in a different context. And learning and having that education is just so crucial to be able to really take on those experiences, I think.
[00:30:39] Lauren French: Yeah. And I think as well that for parents particularly, um, but for adults, like that curiosity I think you a- you have to have back to a young person. Mm. I think when a young person does have questions or a curiosity about a topic, we can sometimes jump to worst case. Mm. "Why are you asking me this? You're asking me this because X, Y, Z."
[00:30:59] And often those are kind of in an extreme space without kind of spending time being curious. Actually asking why they're asking it. Mm. You know? Oh, that's really interesting. You know, why, why are we thinking about that now? 'Cause again, what's happening in their world to make them think of this?
[00:31:15] Winnie Adamson: Yeah.
[00:31:17] Whereas we often jump to that worst case scenario sometimes, and there's good reasons for that, I guess- Yeah ... in some certain, spaces. But, it's a good point to kind of remind ourselves of that.
[00:31:29] Um, I do wanna shift our conversation now into more, um, your research and learnings through your Churchill Fellowship in 2023- Yeah
[00:31:38] where you focused on Indigenous elder-guided relationship and community repair after youth sexual violence. And I'm gonna take us back to the WAS conference, because your keynote presentation about woven knowledge and the findings from your fellowship was really memorable, and honestly, the start of thinking about this episode.
[00:31:57] Maddy and I looked at each other and thought, "What a great guest, and what a great message to really share On The Couch to our audiences." Um, and what was really powerful was the strength-based narrative of centering Indigenous knowledge, cultural strengths, relationships, and community wisdom as those critical foundations of healing.
[00:32:18] And we often hear about conversations responding to sexual violence framed through those Western models of healing, focusing more on those individual aspects, individual therapy, those justice systems. But your work really invites us to think differently about what becomes possible when we center those Indigenous ways of knowing, being, and doing, and that wisdom.
[00:32:42] Um, so those strengths, I guess, in community. Yeah. And can you take us on a journey of what it means when we move away from Western models of healing and center the knowledge and strengths held within First Nations and Indigenous communities?
[00:32:58] Lauren French: Mm. Yeah, and thank you for your kind words about my keynote.
[00:33:01] Never know where a keynote lands, so that's always good. Um, as you said, Western spaces, specifically for healing, are individualistic and transactional. Uh, uh, and they don't always ... Like, those two things are not always connected. Like, when I think about the work I'm currently doing as a sexologist and somebody who practices sexology in quite often Western spaces, it can be quite individualistic.
[00:33:25] That doesn't mean it must be transactional. Mm. But that tends to be the model in which Western healing spaces are built off of. The foundations are transactional. Mm. Uh, in my Churchill Fellowship ... Uh, for those who are unfamiliar, Churchill Fellowship is a funded international research fellowship where you learn globally to come back and ideally inspire locally, which sounds like I'm doing slightly, which is great.
[00:33:50] Mm. Uh, and over nine weeks I traveled to Aotearoa, New Zealand, Turtle Island, both Canada and the United States, as well as Sámi in Norway, and went to the Sámi Parliament there. Mm. And so I was meeting Indigenous people globally and looking at our shared ways of, you know, ancestral healing practices, as well as our shared experiences of colonisation and the removal of our healing practices.
[00:34:17] And within my fellowship and travels, uh, was able to meet absolutely incredible, both young people and elders, and looking at how intergenerational knowledge is shared. And obviously a crucial element of colonisation has been the intentional severing of intergenerational relationships through both a removal of language from oral storytellers and, you know, communities that pass knowledge through language.
[00:34:43] Mm. And so having those severed, uh, ties has led to so much lost knowledge and lost practices. However, that doesn't mean everything is lost, and there is so much of a shared, uh, understanding of, of healing, globally, you know. And when I went and did my research fellowship, I was doing Indigenous ways of, research and very much centered on yarning and, uh, allowing ancestral, uh- , for some, if, if, if, if you're sitting in really Western spaces, this can sometimes be, uh, not even confronting but just a confusing mind shift.
[00:35:24] So I ask if that's you just to, like, sit with it and allow it to have truth and not question all your other truths in your world. Uh, but for Indigenous researching practices going, well, we're going and creating safe yarning spaces to invite our ancestors and to guide us where knowledge needs to be guided to.
[00:35:44] And so that means that when you go into that sort of research, it's very open, and if you work within a kind of Western, like, university institution, they would be like, "This is not gonna do it." And yet, across my nine weeks and, like, different continents and countries and cities and spaces, the ancestral pull led us to exactly the conversations we need to have, and the same conversations across those spaces even though I wasn't coming with the same questions.
[00:36:12] We just ended up being pulled in the same directions. Mm-hmm. You know, there was a continued knowing that we followed. Again, sit with it if you need it. It, it, it, it can be quite counter to how we think about research. Mm. Um, but when I kind of come back to that Western space, that transactional idea, uh, it operates healing outside of community, and as if healing is only about a single person.
[00:36:38] Mm. And it doesn't, um, like it doesn't acknowledge harm impacting across community. And so when we recognise First Nation ways of being and doing, we need to understand the relational groundwork, and so the fact that there is an interconnectedness from both ourselves and Country, but ourselves and our community and as people.
[00:37:00] Winnie Adamson: Mm-hmm.
[00:37:01] Lauren French: And so it isn't about an individual. An individual has been harmed, but that harm has harmed the community. Mm. It's harmed the person that did the harming. Like- Mm ... that person who is harmed has also been harmed in that process. Mm-hmm. Uh, and I think this can be hard for, you know, non-Indigenous people to always understand, because the view of community is quite small and narrow.
[00:37:24] It's my immediate family. It's who lives in my house, or it's, uh, you know, it, it, it, it's quite small.
[00:37:31] Winnie Adamson: Mm.
[00:37:31] Lauren French: Tangent, I'm not gonna go through the tangent, I just wanna acknowledge- Sure ... that it's over there. Um, but I find it so fascinating in Western spaces, the kind of gap that has been created with the generational movements away from organised religion.
[00:37:43] Mm. And, like, the gap that this has created in, shared community and shared values and shared, moralistic direction. Um, I have lots of feelings about religion, which I'm not gonna go into. Mm. But I find it really interesting the gap that it's created, and so the view- Mm ... continues to be individualistic.
[00:38:02] We live in such close quarters with so many people, and yet we would- Mm ... not consider the people closest to you physically your community. And so sometimes we find that community in school, in sport, in groups and in other spaces. But from a healing and, uh, and harm perspective, that community doesn't come into that lens.
[00:38:23] Winnie Adamson: Mm-hmm.
[00:38:24] Lauren French: And so the community's really narrow. And so without it, it creates this kind of vacuum- That kind of gets filled up with other elements, and when we think of Western societies, that vacuum has kind of then created, you know, the justice system that it sits in now, which is all about shunning those that harm-
[00:38:43] Winnie Adamson: Mm
[00:38:43] Lauren French: and, uh, isolating from community.
[00:38:47] Winnie Adamson: Mm.
[00:38:48] Lauren French: And this need to prove innocence and guilt becomes crucial to justice. I'm using quotation marks for anyone not watching this. But in doing that and in all my research and conversations globally, this need to put innocence and guilt is not helpful for healing.
[00:39:06] It's not actually a part of healing.
[00:39:08] Winnie Adamson: Mm.
[00:39:08] Lauren French: What it actually does, that framing makes it so hard for the person who is harmed to acknowledge the impact- Mm ... because there's too much emphasis on trying to prevent the isolation of community, because the isolation of community is actually not helpful for that person to heal or the community to heal.
[00:39:28] It often also means the community must split, and when particularly sexual violence, like I spent eight years working within sexual violence with young people, uh, and most of the time that is perpetrated by people within the community. It's close people. Mm. Those people share community, and so once violence and harm has occurred, community severs and community goes, "Okay, we will support the person that has been harmed," and then this other group goes, "Okay, we will support the person that is harmed," and the two can never now meet.
[00:39:59] The community is fractured, and they are helping these two arms. There's a beautiful kind of analogy. Mm. When I was in Alaska and working with some incredible Native women there that do work in sexual violence, and they were talking about, uh, the analogy was an eagle, which is, you know, one wing, an arm of our work is to support people that have experienced harm-
[00:40:22] Winnie Adamson: Mm
[00:40:23] Lauren French: you know, to come back into themselves and to have a time of transition out of who they have now become after being harmed. And then another wing of that eagle is supporting the people who have harmed, and supporting the people who have harmed does not mean that we accept the harm. Mm. It's actually the complete opposite.
[00:40:41] It's that we've acknowledged that they have actually stepped outside of themselves, outside of our community, and so there is acknowledgement and healing and accountability work that must be done, and that cannot be done if they are removed from the community. Doesn't mean they have to be with the person that they've harmed.
[00:40:58] It's not like everyone has to stay in a room until everyone's healed. Uh, but they're not leaving the community. The community has to actually support that person. These are the two wings, but an eagle does not fly if it does not have a body, and the body is the community. The body, the community- Mm-hmm
[00:41:14] is what wraps around those two arms. If the community is severed, the bird doesn't fly.
[00:41:20] Winnie Adamson: Mm.
[00:41:20] Lauren French: The healing can't happen. Community is the integral piece to healing that we have lost in Western spaces. Mm-hmm. You know, this rupture has created this kind of, again, as I said, chasm and gap that gets filled by, legal systems and prisons and, and again, quote-un-quote, ideas of justice.
[00:41:42] But the community isn't wrapped around those two spaces.
[00:41:45] Winnie Adamson: Mm.
[00:41:45] Lauren French: Uh, and so it creates isolation. And so, when I've spoken to young people who have experienced sexual violence, very few of them have ever said they want that person to go to jail.
[00:41:55] Winnie Adamson: Mm.
[00:41:56] Lauren French: That's not the ask. That's not the want. That doesn't, that doesn't feel like it supports their healing.
[00:42:01] What they want is for acknowledgement of the impact- Mm ... of the actions of the person who harmed. They want that person to never do it again. Mm. That's the big piece. They want them to never do it again. Mm. Now, if that's where we wanna get to, how can you get there if you can't allow the person to acknowledge that they've harmed?
[00:42:20] And we can't let that person acknowledge it if they are so terrified that they're gonna be isolated from their community.
[00:42:26] Winnie Adamson: Mm.
[00:42:28] Lauren French: And there is gonna be that rupture, you know. At the same time, you've got community that then will not let someone acknowledge that they've hurt people or harmed, because they do not wanna lose that community member. And so everything becomes- Yeah
[00:42:42] so fractured. Uh, now to be, before someone like takes this and quotes and I end up on the news, I'm not saying no one should ever go to prison, and you know, the justice system is not necessarily my, quote-un-quote expertise. Chat to Katrina Marson if you want to listen to her probably around way more about that.
[00:42:59] Um, but healing doesn't magically happen when someone goes to jail. Mm. Court processes often add harm. They do not alleviate harm.
[00:43:08] Winnie Adamson: Mm.
[00:43:08] Lauren French: And this does not create ground for healing work. Mm. And, you know, the communities where harm has occurred, communities need healing. So the whole Western idea of individual harm needs to be completely shifted and re-removed out.
[00:43:26] Uh- Mm ... and I'm sure some people kind of can, can name this as when they're thinking about if you've had an experience with restorative justice, um, and I have. Uh, and I think there's lots within that, but I also think, even within restorative justice practices, there's something in that word justice that just, I think sometimes limits our ideas- Mm
[00:43:45] of healing. Mm. And timeline of healing, and scope of healing, and the fact that- Mm ... that community piece needs to have, needs to be centered.
[00:43:55] Winnie Adamson: Mm. That, I am gonna have to go back and listen to that multiple times- ... 'cause that was so incredibly powerful, and I have so many thoughts jumping around in my brain, and I think it does...
[00:44:08] It actually makes me, I'm trying to kind of connect to how I feel hearing it all- Mm ... 'cause it does make me feel, like I feel like I kind of am almost mourning a- Mm ... a, something that I really wish we had so much more of, because- Yeah ... I could just see so much more healing, stronger communities if we were able to really connect in that way to support those people who have harmed or who have experienced harm.
[00:44:39] Mm. And I really think it's so important to also focus and acknowledge that it is someone who has perpetrated harm who also needs support. Mm. And, 'cause they have been let down by a system as well. Yeah. You know? And when we're talking about strength-based approaches, I think that's how we can really reach and actually create these education and prevention initiatives- Mm
[00:45:02] that are gonna strengthen and move us away from how much violence or sexual violence is in our communities. Yeah. So I really love that acknowledgement and the strength of community when it comes to that. And as you said at the end there, um, talking about the language, like the term justice, you know.
[00:45:23] I think there is a lot of, there's so much language we use in this space that- Mm ... unintentionally define young people by what's happened to them rather than recognised for their strengths, resilience- Mm ... and agency. And taking that strength-based approach and shifting the focus from asking what's wrong with someone to instead asking, "What can we do to support that person?"
[00:45:47] Yeah. And I think that's really important when we're talking about people who've experienced harm also entering services and systems.
[00:45:55] Lauren French: Mm.
[00:45:55] Winnie Adamson: Cause as healthcare professionals, teachers, social workers, we are often in positions where our responses and our approaches can either reinforce those deficit narratives- Yeah
[00:46:05] or create opportunities for healing, empowerment, and connection. So what does it look like in practice for young people impacted by sexual violence when we move away from those deficit lenses, and how can this change services and systems?
[00:46:23] Lauren French: Yeah, I think, well, obviously, you know, the research I did in that and the work that I've predominantly done ha- is with young people.
[00:46:29] And so-
[00:46:29] Winnie Adamson: Mm ...
[00:46:30] Lauren French: as you said, you know, the young person who is harmed has harmed themselves-
[00:46:34] Winnie Adamson: Mm ...
[00:46:35] Lauren French: in doing that action, and the community, there is a gap there. This person has gotten to a space where harm is, is the movement, whether that's from a lack of education, a lack of moralistic support, whether it's from a lack of, you know, people around them, or even just open conversation around RSE.
[00:46:54] Winnie Adamson: Mm.
[00:46:54] Lauren French: And, you know, we think there's so much more emphasis on conversations around consent particularly compared to when I was a young person in school. Mm. Um, and yet when I also still have conversations with young people, they go, "Okay, now we really get consent," but, like, okay, but now that also makes me think, "Yep, so I've gotten a yes, but then, but now what?"
[00:47:12] Mm. And so we have, like, consensual maybe experiences that still aren't the aim or where we're- Mm ... looking for with young people, which I think is an important piece to ground ourselves in as well.
[00:47:23] Winnie Adamson: Mm.
[00:47:23] Lauren French: You know, consent's a fundamental. It's not a, it's not the end. Mm. It's not the whole piece. It's a fundamental practice actually that- Mm
[00:47:31] everyone needs knowledge for. Mm. Uh, so when we think about that, you know, for young people particularly impacted by sexual violence, deficit lens m- for young people, you know, if we, if we have a deficit lens around with sexual violence, the young person who is harmed, that's it. That's their label. That's their world.
[00:47:48] They either acknowledge harm- Mm ... and get separated from their community, or they never acknowledge harm and never learn and never- Mm ... shift, and their being will shift because they are never able to heal from the harm that they are causing- Mm ... or they have caused themselves and their community. The person that is harmed, uh, ends up in a space of going, "Well, either I must go through harmful justice proceedings, court proceedings- Mm
[00:48:14] police proceedings, or this can only be a piece of me that cannot be shared," and this ends up in this kind of, again, deficit view of, uh, false accusations, and he said, she said, and this kind of language- Mm ... of shame and stigma. And I think also, uh, this idea as well of, you know, what the impact of that harm looks, looks like.
[00:48:37] So when we think about strength-based, it's about going, okay, harm has occurred. This has created a transformation for this person. What transformation do we wanna aim for that we're kind of trying to move to? 'Cause I think this idea of we're trying to go back to pre-harm, uh, anyone that, you know, works in healing space will tell you it's not about that.
[00:48:56] Uh, it's about going, okay, where are we transforming to next? Mm. What, what do we need, uh, and what strengths do we already hold? And, you know, uh, really acknowledging the strengths this young person already has, and then also connecting to the community. What are the strengths the community has?
[00:49:12] Winnie Adamson: Mm-hmm.
[00:49:12] Lauren French: And how do we build those up?
[00:49:14] In the same way that the person is harmed, what are their strengths in community and how are we utilising that and connecting that back in? And I think so often, again, our systems and services are individual.
[00:49:27] Winnie Adamson: Mm-hmm.
[00:49:27] Lauren French: They don't include community around those people. They don't include community accountability and ideas of, you know- I, I think that's also why I k- I keep coming back to this word justice.
[00:49:38] Justice i- like, towards who?
[00:49:41] Winnie Adamson: Mm-hmm.
[00:49:42] Lauren French: Because from what I hear from people, you know, who have experienced harm, that's not justice for them. And it's not justice for the community that has experienced the fracture and harm. So okay, what ... You know, how do we link back to that idea? Mm-hmm. And again, having that knowledge of strength, the community can, when given opportunity and support, is able to actually understand that accountability and what is needed for healing.
[00:50:09] We just don't- Mm-hmm ... often ever give community a voice at the table.
[00:50:13] Winnie Adamson: Mm-hmm. Yeah.
[00:50:14] Lauren French: And often because the services are so individualistic, those people are so separated out and isolated in their healing journey, uh, that We almost create language where it feels like they can't invite anyone else in.
[00:50:29] Winnie Adamson: Mm-hmm. Yeah.
[00:50:30] Lauren French: And so then they're alone on that healing journey with maybe just you as a practitioner.
[00:50:35] Winnie Adamson: Mm-hmm.
[00:50:36] Lauren French: And then you have to be their entire community, and that's not possible- Mm-hmm ... for you as an individual.
[00:50:41] Winnie Adamson: Yeah. Yeah, so true. It's so important that we bring in the community as working in those spaces too, and working with our partners in these spaces, and really bringing- Yeah
[00:50:55] those local communities we have around us, all the different services. Like, it's so, it's really so collaborative and so important- Yeah ... to bring that in. You know, I'm thinking about our listeners who often join On The Couch, and those with us today. Um, we work alongside those priority populations like young people, Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people, those with culture and linguistically diverse backgrounds, and people who identify within the LGBTQIA+ communities.
[00:51:25] How do we create advocacy spaces that are truly inclusive when we're working with these populations?
[00:51:34] Lauren French: Yeah. Uh, an incredibly important- piece of work for every individual and, like, organisation and community space to do. Uh, and I think for those working in these spaces, like, it, this comes back for me about reflective practice.
[00:51:50] This is about attitudes and bias at a foundational level. I think sometimes we wanna jump to policies, procedures, environment, flags on doors, Acknowledgements on windows, which can all be really important signals and things that we need, but before we can go into any of those spaces, reflective work needs to be done about the attitudes and values and bias that you hold as an individual.
[00:52:14] Mm. This can be confronting work. Uh, and to be clear, everyone has bias. Everyone has internalised attitudes. You have all grown up in society in spaces that are predominantly sex negative, that are racist, that are misogynistic and homophobic and transphobic, because unfortunately, that's the society that we all live in.
[00:52:34] Winnie Adamson: Mm-hmm.
[00:52:34] Lauren French: And so needing to actually do some work to unpack those biases that we hold, and attitudes. Uh, and, and that has to be done slowly and safely and critically. And knowing you have a bias does not make you a bad person. This is not about good and bad people. This is not judgment. It's just that you cannot accurately identify that bias if you haven't done that work in the moment when it comes out.
[00:52:59] You know? And so, like, I, you know, I have bias. You will have bias. Everyone will. Mm-hmm. But once you acknowledge it, you name it, you're able to see it really clearly, you will then see the impact it has on others. Mm. And that's really critical for inclusive spaces. You need to be able to see the way that your whole self and what you're bringing into the room creates safety or creates, something that is unsafe for someone.
[00:53:23] Cause you come back to the idea, how are you opening the door and inviting in? And those are actually two separate things. You can open a door- That doesn't necessarily invite people inside. Mm-hmm. 'Cause I think sometimes people, and a lot of, uh, practitioners faces will open the door, but they don't do the inviting in piece.
[00:53:41] Mm-hmm. And then they go, " i've done all this great work. Why is no one coming?" Yeah. "And why is my space not inclusive? And, but I've, I've signaled. I have a flag. I have a this. I've written something in a bio"- Mm-hmm ... blah, blah, blah. Uh, don't not do those things. But that doesn't invite in. Inviting in- Mm ... can sometimes be you're actually reaching through the door, holding someone's hand, and inviting them through the threshold.
[00:54:03] Winnie Adamson: Mm-hmm.
[00:54:03] Lauren French: And that can only be done with some really transparent understanding of - your bias and attitudes.
[00:54:09] Winnie Adamson: Mm-hmm.
[00:54:09] Lauren French: And so you can signal safety, 'cause that tells people that you open the door. It doesn't prove it's safe to walk through it. Mm-hmm. That can only be proved through behavior and, consistently coming back.
[00:54:21] And it doesn't mean you're perfect. It doesn't mean you never make, uh- Mm ... a mistake or an error or misspeak. It's about how you correct. It's about how you re-come back to safety and acknowledge any harm that you cause.
[00:54:34] Winnie Adamson: Mm-hmm. '
[00:54:35] Lauren French: Cause sometimes we inevitably cause harm. Doesn't mean we're malicious or we have malicious intent.
[00:54:40] Mm. The repair is how you prove inclusive, safe spaces.
[00:54:45] Winnie Adamson: Mm. I love that. I would love to just keep chatting but unfortunately we are coming to the end. So, Lauren, if you would like to just share one or two key messages from our chat today to sum us up as we finish.
[00:55:01] Oh,
[00:55:02] Lauren French: one or two? I can answer for days. Um, uh, I, I think, look, the, I think the last thing we just spoke of to me is critical. Mm-hmm. If you're thinking about what do I do after this, if you're feeling like you have all this energy, and I wanna do all this stuff, but, like, I don't know where to start, um, a great first start is reflective practice.
[00:55:18] Mm. And thinking about bias and you know, even posing questions to yourself about, um, you know, these ideas, like what are your attitudes around, uh, like teenage pregnancies? What are your attitudes- Mm ... around deficit lens language in some of these health spaces? Like, what are your values and bias?
[00:55:39] And just naming them. Don't judge them. Don't feel like you need to change or shift necessarily, but can we name them? Are we aware of them? Mm. I think it's critical. Mm. And then my kind of second piece I'd say kind of taking from today, uh, is going, okay, h- where does community fit into your work?
[00:55:57] Winnie Adamson: Mm.
[00:55:58] Lauren French: And just seeing where, where, where can community fit.
[00:56:00] And if there's like ... And if you go, "I don't think there's any space," or there's nothing that's been developed yet, there's your gap.
[00:56:06] Where does community come in? And, and what's your view of community? Mm. Is it like this big and like this little? You know? And if you're working with an individual, what does community mean for them?
[00:56:18] Because if you're asking me to talk about my community, I'm sure that would sound very different than maybe someone else's idea of community.
[00:56:25] Winnie Adamson: Thanks for listening to On The Couch. We create this podcast because we are allies in actively challenging discrimination, microaggressions, and exclusionary behaviors.
[00:56:50] Maddy Stratten: We wanna create spaces where people feel safe to share their thoughts, knowing that they will be heard and respected. Such an environment fosters collaboration, innovation, and contributes to a more inclusive society.
[00:57:02] Winnie Adamson: Follow us on your favorite podcast platform. That way, you will receive every new episode when it's released. You can also help us grow the podcast by giving us a rating and leaving us a review.
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[00:57:19]Winnie Adamson: On The Couch is made by the team at Caddyshack Project. Until next time, peace, love, and protection.