On The Couch with Karina Reeves and Leon Huxtable

[00:00:00] Maddy Stratten: Hi, and welcome to another episode of On The Couch, where we collaborate with experts, practitioners, authors, advocates, and influencers to explore current social themes, sex-positive topics, and share stories and insights that matter.

[00:00:24] Winnie Adamson: This podcast was recorded on Aboriginal country. We acknowledge the traditional custodians of the lands that were never ceded on which we live, work, and record upon.

[00:00:33] Maddy Stratten: We pay our respect to elders past and present, and to those who may be visiting our website or listening to our podcast today.

[00:00:40] Winnie Adamson: While listening, we encourage you to practice good self-care, and of course, check the show notes for further information.

[00:00:45] Maddy Stratten: Wherever you are, whatever you're doing-

[00:00:47] Winnie Adamson: Enjoy this episode of On The Couch

[00:00:49] I'm Winnie Adamson and I'm here with my co-host and friend, Maddy Stratten.

[00:00:58] Maddy Stratten: Hi, Winnie. I'm really keen to get into today's episode. We're gonna be chatting with, Karina and Leon about culturally responsive relationships and sexuality education and what that actually looks like in practice.

[00:01:11] Winnie Adamson: That's so right, Maddy.

[00:01:12] So excited to get into this chat, and welcome Karina and Leon.

[00:01:17] Karina Reeves: Hi, it's great to be here. Thanks for having me.

[00:01:20] Leon Huxtable: Yeah, thanks for having me as well.

[00:01:22] Maddy Stratten: Thank you. So every episode to introduce our guests, we use the concepts of fields of existence and coordinates of belonging by Co-Culture Communications.

[00:01:32] They demonstrate that our beings are a field of activity made up of the stories that we've been told, our ancestors that have existed, the lands under our feet, and the places where we stand, and all of these forces form who we are in this moment as contextual beings. So starting with you, Karina, how do you define and locate yourself, and what are your coordinates of belonging?

[00:01:54] Karina Reeves: Thanks, Maddy. Uh, my name is Karina Reeves, and my pronouns are she/her. And I grew up, and I'm currently joining you from, and I currently live, work, and play on Whadjuk Noongar Boodja, um, which is on the west coast of Australia. So reflecting on my own coordinates of belonging I did find quite challenging because I feel like when I was growing up, and for much of my life, I did experience a sense of discomfort when it came to where I fit with my identity.

[00:02:23] Um, and I don't, I don't think that's an uncommon experience, and it's actually one I've been able to connect with others about in my adulthood. So I felt like I didn't really fully belong to one culture or faith or identity, and it's something I'm still navigating, and I actually don't think I'll ever feel like there's an endpoint of where that might go because that is quite a binary way of thinking.

[00:02:45] And I think, um, in line with the things that we're talking about today, there is always a sense of, um, change and, uh, responsiveness, so I, I do feel that quite true to my identity as well. But I can let you know that I am a second-generation migrant on my mother's side. So my mother was born in Indonesia, and she migrated to Australia when she was in her 20s because she was seeking a better life than the one that she had experienced in her child and young adulthood.

[00:03:13] My father was born and raised in Australia, and he has British colonial ancestry. So I am a person of color with a mixed heritage, and I was really influenced by that Southeast Asian way of thinking and culture as I was growing up, but that also came with the layer of navigating my Australian and British ancestry and being raised in a mixed-faith household.

[00:03:36] But I'm honestly super grateful for that, um, because it's really enabled me to have a sense of curiosity about the world and because I truly believe that I experience the best of both worlds. Um, my classic example is family celebrations. I, particularly at Christmas, I got to revel in the foods that were both Western and Indonesian, and food is definitely something I absolutely adore and value, um, which I know a lot of other people feel that as well.

[00:04:04] So I think in line with the coordinates, I have come to sort of understand that I, in my adulthood, I've been on a journey of and of finding that grounding of who I am. Um, but I do really value those cultures that I do carry. Um, but some of the things I do love beyond that sort of, identity piece, um, the things that I enjoy, um, I really love reading, and I really love, um, that sense of joy in culture and connection.

[00:04:31] Um, and I try and bring that to all the things that I bring myself to.

[00:04:36] Winnie Adamson: Mm. Mm. Thanks so much for sharing, Karina. And Leon, how do you define and locate yourself?

[00:04:44] Leon Huxtable: Uh, I mean, just like Karina, I also found this quite challenging- Yeah ... but it was a good activity to go through. Uh, so my name is Leon and my pronouns are he/him.

[00:04:52] Um, I grew up on the lands of, um, the Garigal or the Caregal clans, uh, who are part of the coastal, um, Dharug or, Eora, Nation. Um, when I grew up, I actually knew it by a different land name, and it was only yesterday when I was kind of looking through this that I found out that- There's a different, um, yeah, kinda name for it now, and there's a lot of- Mm-hmm

[00:05:14] um, disagreement on the name that was used growing up. Um, so that was in, um, in Sydney on the Northern Beaches. Um, and it was really hard to find that information.

[00:05:24] Karina Reeves: Mm.

[00:05:25] Leon Huxtable: Um, I currently live, love, play, and work on the lands of the Wurundjeri people, um, who are part of the Kulin Nation here in Naarm. Um, last year I did the thing that so many people have done before and did my Ancestry DNA test because I was feeling pretty cultureless and a bit lost, uh, based on a lot of conversations about culture that I was having, um, especially as someone who has like Anglo-Celtic Australian background.

[00:05:51] Um, through that testing I found my DNA in the places you would expect, like Ireland, Northern Ireland, Scotland, Wales, England- Mm-hmm ... Finland, Sweden, Germany, and The Netherlands. So it really highlights the white history that I have, um, which is challenging in a country where it is those ancestors that were the oppressors of the traditional custodians.

[00:06:11] Um, I did feel a little bit of hope in finding, you know, uh, things that I didn't know, mainly when it came to, like, Germany, Netherlands, Finland, stuff like that. Um, on my dad's mum's side, um, I've had a bit of history about, my family. We've got a book called A Long Way from Tipperary that was written by, like, a cousin or whatever.

[00:06:30] Maddy Stratten: Wow.

[00:06:31] Leon Huxtable: Um, and I used that for a school assignment about a bush ranger in our family. Mm. But, um, I guess what I kind of realized is that I really am still finding my feet when it's about navigating, like, what are my coordinates- Mm ... born and where am I now? Um, I'm really lucky that I grew up in a, a family with really strong female figures in my grandma and my nanna, my mum, and my sisters, as well as having really good, um, and great male role models in my dad and uncles.

[00:06:59] , I received lots of love and guidance from them all, I'm very confident that, that is what's made me the person I am today. Um, as the youngest of three and the only boy in my family, I am also the favorite. Um- ... but that's, you know, great to have grown up that way. Um, in terms of, like, what I'm yearning for, I continue to yearn for more connection and community, um, within my family, my found family, my friends.

[00:07:22] Um, I do get a lot of it already, but I just am always wanting more because I love it so much. And, um, in terms of what I value, I value authenticity. I realize lately I really value whimsy- Mm ... um, joy and humor, vulnerability, that connection. Um, and I continue to value and wanna learn more about the beautiful lands that I'm on, um, and just trying to spend as much time in nature with the rich indigenous history as well.

[00:07:52] Winnie Adamson: Hmm. Thanks both so much. It's so great, I think, to start here and really hear from both of you and where you come from and what passion and what you yearn for. I know our listeners find this really valuable, and to connect with your story as we go through the episode. Hmm.

[00:08:11] Maddy Stratten: Yeah. Agree. Thanks so much, and I love kind of ending that with a note on whimsy.

[00:08:16] I love finding the whimsy in life. Mm-hmm. Like, you've just gotta be silly and have a bit of a giggle, um, because there's a lot going on, isn't there? And sometimes you just need a giggle at the pigeons that are having a conversation right in front of you. It's, it's funny. It's silly. I love it. Um, so thanks so much.

[00:08:34] And just to get our listeners into the head space, um, I'll just note now that throughout the episode we will be using the term RSE, and this refers to relationships and sexuality education. I'm really keen to hear your thoughts around reframing some other terminology a little later on too. And look, we don't wanna start this conversation with any assumptions, and so we've been reading into what the evidence tells us about RSE with migrant and refugee communities, and we can share these papers in the episode show notes as well.

[00:09:06] We've been, often talking about the definition of sexual health, uh, being beyond just preventing STIs and unplanned pregnancy. So starting by thinking about the World Health Organisation's definition which states that sexual health is more than the absence of disease and requires a positive and respectful approach to sexuality and sexual relationships.

[00:09:26] This inclusion of pleasure may not actually be representative of how some migrant and refugee communities talk about sex, sexualities and relationships with young people.

[00:09:38] Winnie Adamson: Hmm. That's such a good point, Maddy. Yeah. It makes me think about their diverse religious backgrounds. And research does show that some young people from migrant and refugee backgrounds find that RSE is not always representative of their community.

[00:09:52] Kind of includes representations of bodies, clothing, specific cultural religious practices linked to sexual activity, sexuality or even contraceptive use.

[00:10:03] Maddy Stratten: Yeah. And so it's here where we can see these potential barriers for educators in both schools and community settings. Thinking about how educators engage migrant and refugee communities with messages perceived as conflicting with beliefs or, uh, concerns of replacing values.

[00:10:20] So can we start, uh, by hearing about both of your experiences, Karina in community and Leon in schools? Can you speak to the importance of practicing culturally responsive RSE?

[00:10:35] Karina Reeves: Thanks, Maddy and Winnie. Um, so my experience comes from working in community-based health promotion, particularly alongside migrant women and men, more specifically in the area of HIV.

[00:10:47] But we obviously know there are broader contributors to HIV and broader STI transmission. Um, and hopefully my experiences may have some relevance for the people online today. It can be quite tricky sometimes because I think cultural responsiveness asks us to consider the contextual factors that do contribute to RSE.

[00:11:08] So maybe my experience might not neatly translate into someone else's, but I do think there are some general learnings that can be applied that Leon and I can both speak to. Um, so my understanding and how I try and practice cultural responsiveness is to recognize that, um, culture does, shape people's understandings of relationships, sexuality, gender, and so much more.

[00:11:34] And it does ask us to understand that, um, be curious about it, and see how we can respond and adapt what our ways of thinking and apply that to someone else's, um, context. Um, so I, I think it's really important because we all know how important trust is when building- Mm ... um, and working with any sort of community, particularly with communities that have different viewpoints as us.

[00:12:00] So I've found that's one of the most important factors to, um, consider in this context. Um, and what I've also found is that the terminology that you just spoke to, Maddy, it's- Mm ... it's still sort of, um... It's always been there, but I think it's, um, a way of working that we are strengthening our understanding of.

[00:12:20] So what this understanding does speak to is positioning the community as the experts and how we can work together, um, in this space. So it- Mm ... sort of shifts from the question of how do we get community to fit into our programs, to how can our practice and our systems change to better understand, respect, and support the community.

[00:12:40] Mm. So I think what is particularly important is that it asks us to move away from judgment and respond with humility and curiosity and care. Mm. So it really changes that deficit-based narrative that a lot of us are sort of working in because that's what our system, um, has built around us, and then reframing that to a more positive strength-based approach when it comes to RSE.

[00:13:03] Maddy Stratten: Mm. Leon, did you want to jump in here from a school perspective?

[00:13:08] Leon Huxtable: Yeah, sure. I know, as said, we're gonna talk about language a bit more, but, um, I can't get rid of my habits of being an English teacher. And so I think that, like, talking about culturally responsive practice is, like, really the first part of this conversation, and one of the most important steps that, um, you know, I, I think as Karina said, we're still working on it, and it's something that's, like, new language for me to be using as well.

[00:13:31] I think- Mm ... in the past people have really focused on culturally safe or culturally aware practices, which are obviously extremely important. But, uh, this is really that shift into doing. It's active. Um, it's able to pivot at, uh, different points too. So I think that's like why the language here is so important of being responsive rather than just aware, 'cause awareness doesn't mean you do it, have to do anything with it.

[00:13:54] Um, and safety looks different, which means you're responding to those needs. Um, when we're working in schools, like we've got a really wonderful mixture of young people from all different backgrounds. You know, we're never really in settings where it's just from one background. So we're having to look at how do we make our presentations as, safe and responsive for everybody.

[00:14:14] Um, and the main way that we do that is that we just highlight that we're all coming to this with different views and values and belief systems, and that's okay. And we're gonna be respectful of them. Um, and I often will say in that setting where I'm the educator to try to take the pressure off the other young people is, "If you have questions about what someone says with their belief or a value, maybe just ask it through me."

[00:14:35] So rather than targeting the person, we're talking about the idea, you know, not targeting the, individual. So, um, that's one of the ways that we can kind of reduce that pressure. And, um, one of the main, like- phrases that we focus on and, uh, has really been helpful when I've done specific work in, um, schools with big migrant and refugee, um, populations is highlighting that we're not there to replace values.

[00:15:00] Mm-hmm. We're not there to replace values or religious beliefs or anything like that. We're there to provide the information that we have, which is information that's from the Western medical scientific lens. But that is not the whole picture. So d- Mm ... different cultures and religions and, you know, groups will bring their own knowledge and information, and that's important too.

[00:15:19] So parents and carers or their community, they all provide the information about values. That's not for me to do. I'm there to give them this other kind of information. And the young people, they take all this information, and it all mixes around, and then they kind of work out, "Well, how do I feel about it?"

[00:15:35] And- Mm ... that's when we start to talk about that idea of the third culture. So the young people having their home culture, the culture that they're living in, and then working out, "Well, where do I sit?" Um, which is probably quite daunting for them. Maybe it's exciting for some of them as well. Um, but, like, really just making it clear what we're not doing has actually helped a lot.

[00:15:57] Like, I've walked into settings that would, um, probably be seen as more, like, hostile to the kind of conversations that we're having, and that really smooths things over and eases the process when I just say, "I'm not actually here to, you know- Mm ... change values and beliefs." I also often have to remind parents and carers that, uh, I can't change their young person's values and beliefs.

[00:16:15] Like, I wish I could sometimes, I guess, but I, I'm an adult, and they are teenagers a lot of the time, or younger people. They're not, like, you know, they know everything. They're not gonna listen to me when I say things. So I don't even have that power if I, like, wanted it. Mm. Um, and so I think for the school setting, i- it's a lot of that pre-work.

[00:16:32] It's making sure that, um, with the sessions, we're starting by highlighting these things. Uh, if we get the chance to have a parent and carer information session, we're able to highlight this for them as well and hopefully reduce some of their, um, fears and concerns around these conversations as well by saying, "No, we're not doing what you're afraid of, actually.

[00:16:50] We're actually just here to provide information." Um, and I think the last thing to focus on is, always coming back to, like, well, what do we agree on? So most people, the easiest one to start with is safety for young people, and so much of what people are worried about or they're concerned about is coming back to safety.

[00:17:08] And so if we can focus on safety and, um, you know, positive experiences in their lives and their relationships, I think that that is also a helpful guiding principle of always coming back to we're all aiming for the same thing, even if we might talk about it in, like, slightly different ways.

[00:17:24] Karina Reeves: Mm.

[00:17:24] Maddy Stratten: Mm.

[00:17:25] Yeah, and I love hearing as well, um, the honesty that comes with that, and, and saying upfront, "This is what I'm not gonna be doing." Um, and I'm not here to change your values and your belief systems. I think that's really important. And I guess also reiterating that RSE is about working alongside community values.

[00:17:46] That's what I was hearing, you know, focusing on respect and empathy, um, when navigating these really sensitive topics in a culturally responsive way. Um, and I guess also the importance of ensuring that the young people, um, that we're working with, like you said, feel safe and not like they're going against those cultural or religious practices that they've been taught at home.

[00:18:07] And so they're kind of figuring all of this out themselves, um, in real time. So yeah, thanks so much for sharing your experiences. I want to do take us back to, um, some of the terminology, especially hearing migrant and refugee communities being used more. Can you expand on some terminology and strategies for how to practice de-othering in RSE?

[00:18:34] Karina Reeves: That's a great question, and I feel like it's one we could dedicate an entire podcast onto. So let's see how we

[00:18:41] Maddy Stratten: go. We might, we might have to do a follow-up episode next year.

[00:18:45] Karina Reeves: Yeah. So I can ... I guess, um, up front it's good to recognize that where the terminology of CALD in particular came from. So CALD, expanding to culturally and linguistically diverse is a term we do often use in- Mm

[00:19:00] um, policy, governance, uh, KPIs, wherever, um, uh, reports- Yeah ... um, quite public-facing things. But that sense of being culturally and linguistically diverse when defining a community does position, um- One community as a socially accepted, dominant or, like, a bit of a, having a bit of a hierarchy where if you're not part of this Anglo-Celtic English-speaking, born in a Western country, you are considered diverse or an other.

[00:19:34] But that sort of, um, misses the experience of someone in a community that may be considered CALD who, um, probably doesn't think of th- themselves as diverse, but they think of themselves as their norm with their experiences and the things that shaped them with growing up. Um, in my, in my travels working with community, I understand that the terminology actually stemmed from the word ethnic, which, um, I think also has a lot of, um, issues in itself when we're applying that to a certain community.

[00:20:04] So I think that's really important to be aware of because, again, like, as I spoke to before, it does imply that there is a hierarchy, but we're trying to- Mm ... um, I think find that middle ground, which is a lot of what Leon was just speaking to. Um, and it does inadvertently marginalize ways of working and ways of thinking.

[00:20:23] Um, so they're quite ... It's quite a, I guess, oppressive way of thinking in the first place. So what I've found, um, when working with community is to actually define the community as they would like by just asking them or being quite specific. So for me, I would say that I am Australian-born, but I am the daughter of an Indonesian woman with a mixed heritage, and that's how I feel comfortable defining myself.

[00:20:47] Um, even though you might look at me and think, "She speaks perfect English, and she is very Anglo, sort of Celtic in her language, but she actually has all these different cultural experiences that she could bring as well." Um, and I found this to be particularly at the forefront of, data and research. So in a past life, I was a research assistant in a sexual health context, and I did work, um, where we were collecting data from community, particularly from migrant communities.

[00:21:20] Um, and I think there was a sense of colonialism in those systems as well when collecting data. So I think that sort of challenges us, that, that knowing challenges us to think. When I do look at the data, that does frame, um, one community as CALD, for example, with HIV notifications, it does already seem quite deficit because it doesn't consider those nuances.

[00:21:44] And I often find that people will default and say, "Okay, so CALD people are represented in these notifications. They must be a vector of disease, or their behaviors and their values and attitudes are contributing to whatever that,", issue of study is. But in reality, I think we're trying to flip that narrative and say, "Actually, these are the people who are being left behind in our systems and our ways of working."

[00:22:05] So really trying to remove that stigma and deficit-based interpretation when not only it comes to data, but our practice as well. Um, so yeah, everything really is about questioning about what those structural barriers are and considering how experiences do shape someone's behavior and attitude. Um Yeah.

[00:22:27] Maddy Stratten: Yeah. Thanks for sharing that, Karina. I know, Leon, um, you also have, um ... Well, I mean, I know this because I read your papers, so I'll just hand over to you rather than just telling you what you're about to say.

[00:22:40] Leon Huxtable: I mean, I also think you said papers. Paper. There's one.

[00:22:43] Maddy Stratten: Paper. Sorry, yeah. Yeah. I've got

[00:22:44] Leon Huxtable: one published journal article, and I'm a, I'm a happy kid about that.

[00:22:47] Mm-hmm. Yeah. You should be. Um, but, yeah, so the, that experience of writing the article, I think, is a really, um, good way to show the learning process of this language. So I was writing a journal article about a project that I worked on, um, which was about, working with mainly the health and physical education teachers in a school that had, like, an 80%, population of migrant and refugee young people, and so how to deliver this information in a space that is, again, maybe not a space that is super easy to have that, um, conversation.

[00:23:17] And so after going through it, you know, write up the journal article and, uh, put all our findings in there, and, um, I was also writing an abstract for, um, a conference at the time, and I was using CALD in the title of all these pieces. And then one of the reviewers for the journal article mentions that it is an othering term, and I went, "Oh, okay."

[00:23:39] So I was really lucky enough that whilst I was working on that project I was connected with the Center for Multicultural Youth, which are a great m- team that you should all be hopefully connecting with and looking at. Um, and they gave me some guidance, and they showed me, um, just by kind of guiding me through this idea of the way that it is othering because as, you know, Karina was saying, it is really a data collection term.

[00:24:00] It, it, it came from the Australian Bureau of Statistics. Um, and when we use it, it just immediately puts you in that kind of, yeah, viewpoint of, well, there is a difference here. There is the other. Because we're saying, "You're diverse," but from what? So that's always the question, is when you say diverse, it's like from what?

[00:24:21] What's, what's the marker for that? Um, it's also the thing o- of listening to the groups like Karina was mentioning and saying, "Well, people who are in these groups that are classified as CALD don't walk around and say, 'Hey, I'm a CALD group,' the same way that people don't say, like, 'I'm a priority population.'"

[00:24:36] Like, it's language that we're using in the background. So I think that's why it's important that when we are front-facing a- and when we're working with community to make sure the language, you know, matches what they would like and how they would like to be talked about. So through that conversation, the term that, um, I think seemed to work the best for what we were saying was migrant and refugee communities or backgrounds, and I went and changed, like, the title of the presentation and my abstract, and we changed all the times that CALD was mentioned in the, um, journal article, which is, like, a tricky thing 'cause when you're getting an article out there, it's more likely that people are gonna search for CALD- Mm-hmm

[00:25:12] than migrant and refugee background. So I mean, I think we still used it in the tagging, but- It was, um, a process that I feel really happy to have had um, . And I think in that article as well, we really acknowledged where we were coming from. So I wrote that article with my, um, colleague Anne Atcheson. Um, and we acknowledged we are coming from this Anglo-Celtic white background writing this paper.

[00:25:36] We are not the people from the community that w- we're talking about, and I'm always acknowledging that in the spaces- Mm-hmm ... in terms of that saying like, "I don't know everything." Um, I think that the role for some of us in that space is that hopefully we can amplify voices or get voices into the rooms where maybe they don't often get invited.

[00:25:55] Um, but I just think that's an important part to, to highlight. Mm-hmm. Now, to me in this discussion that we're having, but also like in those articles, in the presentations that I do, always kind of saying, "I am, I'm not from the community, but I'm gonna- Mm-hmm ... tell you what I learned by working with the community as well."

[00:26:10] Maddy Stratten: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Thank you.

[00:26:13] Winnie Adamson: Yeah. Such great points. Um, it does make me think, you know, language is always evolving and we're always learning and also recognizing our own biases, right, in our positions. Mm-hmm. And I feel like you're right, Karina. This could be a whole episode because there's so many points.

[00:26:30] Even the fact that CALD is an acronym. Mm-hmm. I've been thinking a lot about acronyms and how acronyms in themself can often just completely d- dismiss what you're actually- Yeah ... talking about. Like we often talk about gender-based violence, GBV. Mm-hmm. And when you're just saying GBV, GBV, you're actually completely removing the impact of what- Mm-hmm

[00:26:53] you're actually talking about. Mm-hmm. And I think that same can be applied when you're talking in acronyms in that way. Um- Mm-hmm ... and that's just, that's a whole other

[00:27:02] Maddy Stratten: thing-

[00:27:02] Winnie Adamson: Yeah. ... to talk about, so I won't go more down that, but ...

[00:27:05] Maddy Stratten: Maybe it's a blog post.

[00:27:06] Winnie Adamson: Yeah. True. Maybe it's a blog post. Um, well, thank you so much and I really wanna dive more into looking at what culturally responsive RSE looks like in practice.

[00:27:18] Because as you said earlier, Leon, it's so much more than awareness, and engaging migrant and refugee communities in conversations about sex, sexuality, and relationships does require us as educators, clinicians, and youth workers to be intentional in how we show up and connect with people. And it means being mindful of the actions that we take to ensure individuals feel safe, respected, heard, and included, particularly when discussing topics that are sensitive, taboo, or understood really differently in different cultures.

[00:27:51] So moving from that understanding and into applying in real-world settings, what are the methods of engagement with people born overseas and those second-generation migrants?

[00:28:03] Leon Huxtable: Um, so I think, like, it's been highlighted a few times and, it keeps coming up of that idea of listening to the community. Um, and it sounds like probably one of those things where it's like, you know, we know we get it, but it's, listening and, and really listening with intention.

[00:28:16] And, uh, something that I always come back to from when I was doing, my, studies in student wellbeing, um, it's that listening to understand rather than listening to respond. Um, we will respond eventually, that's the whole idea of being responsive. But in the moment you have to listen to know what needs to be done, and not listen and sit there to wait for your turn to say, "Oh, I actually know all this stuff already.

[00:28:36] Like, I'm super smart and great." It's about saying, "I'm here to be told," and then navigate from that point onwards. Because much like I was just highlighting in terms of my background, like, I'm not the expert in this area. I have not had these experiences of being from a migrant and refugee background, so I need to listen to the experts.

[00:28:55] I mean, it's a similar thing that I'm always gonna say about young people because that's my focus, is that you gotta listen to the people that we're actually working with to know how to give them what they need and what they want. Um, I think also, we've talked about setting up, those safe spaces and, you know, trying your best to make sure that it's a safe space for everyone.

[00:29:13] And that again comes back to these, um, core ideas or core beliefs. So things like respect or safety. Like, coming back to those ideas can be really helpful because they're pretty, um, you know, uh, interchangeable across lots of different groups.

[00:29:26] There's some version of that there. Um, rather than trying to, you know, bring in ideas and terms that can be a bit more, uh, complicated or convoluted when we're in the RSE space trying to ... You know, we're always trying to do our best. We're trying to tick all the boxes, but we can come back to some really clear, um, ideas.

[00:29:42] Um, and, like, highlighting difference is actually really helpful as well. So, um, uh, strangely enough in this lead up to the episode in the last couple of days I have delivered sessions in both, um, like, English language schools with young people from different backgrounds, and this morning I was delivering, uh, a session on menstrual health to a room full of, um, young girls from different migrant and refugee backgrounds, but mainly from Muslim backgrounds as well.

[00:30:08] Um, and, like, highlighting that difference again this, like, Western context and is about what's happening in Australia maybe, but that is not everything. Like, there's all this other information that's there too. And if you've got the time, which as an educator we don't often have the time, but being able to talk about that and highlight and say, "So this is what I've said.

[00:30:27] What's your experience? What does that look like? And then how is it different? And then how do we come together to make it, like, the best possible outcome for everybody?" Um, where possible as much consultation as you can, especially with young people. And you want to get young people from all backgrounds, and that requires work, effort, targeting- Uh, in terms of, like, advertising.

[00:30:50] It requires embedding yourself as much as you can in the community, where, you know, obviously appropriate. Um, I know that I'm full of anecdotes, but obviously life is made up of anecdotes. And the first school that I worked at, in my, like, teacher training was an all-boys school, and 90% of the population were Muslim, and then 10% was, like, Christian.

[00:31:11] And one of the things that my supervising teacher said to me is he said, "You should go to Friday prayers." So I went to Friday prayers. I got told how to prepare for it. I sat in with them because that was putting me in the community saying, like, "I'm here to participate where I can and listen," which then in the context of school and teaching does help a little bit with your connection with those students, rather than just being that kind of, you know, other as the teacher that steps into their space.

[00:31:37] Um, and I know that, um, Karina's got mentions of this as well, but, like, when it comes to representation in both text and visuals, so as much as we can having- Mm ... in-language documents, or if it's not in language, it's in, you know, plain language so it's easier to access. And then the visual representations, I think, um, Winnie, you mentioned that before, but, like, having lots of different people- Mm

[00:32:01] represented, different skin types, different outfits, different attire so that they feel represented in the conversation rather than what we know from research really, like, yeah, that othering experience of sitting in a classroom and showing a lot of people with bodies that might not be theirs, um, and trying to say, you know, "Get on board with this," so.

[00:32:20] Karina Reeves: Yeah. I completely agree. I have experienced a lot of the things that Leon just spoke to, and I did read your paper that you wrote with Anne, and I really, really enjoyed it.

[00:32:30] So definitely recommend everyone who's listening to have a read. There's some really concrete, practical stuff in there. Whereas someone like me can get really, um, caught up on, like, the social constructs, so definitely have a look. Um, something else that we haven't touched on yet is, um, when working with religious communities, and I know religion and culture aren't exactly the same thing, but they do have overlap and influence.

[00:32:53] Um, I'm currently reading this book that I'm really enjoying. It's called God Didn't Make Us to Hate Us by Rev. Lizzie McManus-Dail, and she writes, um, "Life is weird and hard to understand," and I can really get on board with that. Um, so that's something I try and remind myself when working in contexts that challenge me.

[00:33:10] And it reminds me that religion itself, it- it really is like a framework of how to make sense of and understand the world around us, and I find that to be a really helpful starting point because I've often found that, um, people, people talk about how those religious contexts are the most challenging.

[00:33:27] Um, so my experience of faith is incredibly vulnerable and personal, and my sort of starting point there is to not judge anyone else's relationship with their god or gods or their spirituality or their atheist, atheism. I'm not sure if that's a word. Atheism, that's the right one. Yeah. And, and taking it back to those values of compassion and curiosity to help with those relationships to move forward.

[00:33:50] Um, but what I have found, um, in that context in a practical way is sort of mapping concepts of RSE to self-determination because a lot of those values that do sit within lots of religious contexts are about how someone can achieve that self-determination and be their best self. So something that's also been really effective is working with peers of whatever group that person or that person may be from, whether that's a religious leader or a peer from a Chinese, um, community or a Malaysian community or young migrant community.

[00:34:22] Um, working directly with someone who might act as a champion, um, has been really effective, and I think really leveraging on the creativity that people bring. I think that's the great thing about Australia and sort of the melting pot of cultures and the context that we work in, is that, um, these ways of working lend themselves to completely different methods when it comes to RSE.

[00:34:45] So what I'm working on right now, um, and will hopefully work on for the rest of my life 'cause it is my passion project, is Srikandi, which is, the Srikandi Women's Action network. And it was first born as a research project by Dr Corey Gray, where it used participary, participatory action research methods to engage Indonesian-born women because we were seeing more notifications of HIV.

[00:35:08] Um, but it has since grown, going from that research piece to, um- Sitting with me at my organization, WAAC, which is the HIV org. Um, and there are now a group of us, um, it's expanded from Indonesian to Southeast Asian women. And what we've done,. in the past year, we were doing education sessions to women.

[00:35:27] I just don't think they were really quite cutting through, and I think those singular education sessions around RSE were sort of like the first step in, in how we can frame our education as well. It was the first step, but it wasn't quite getting to that behavior change that we were trying to see.

[00:35:43] Um, and so we've sort of rejigged the format, and now we've turned into a dance troupe. And we wear our cultural clothes, and we bring food like spring rolls and rice bowls. Um, and we've created a couple of narratives which we've turned into storytelling dances., And we're working on presenting those, um, at community fairs and stalls, and those narratives speak to the experiences of HIV.

[00:36:06] So I think that sense of creativity has been really, really effective, and it's definitely one to consider when you are working in these cultural contexts. Um, and another example I really wanted to touch on, I know I sort of, um, cr- I was critical with research in my previous question, but that's not to say it's all wrong.

[00:36:23] I think it's just important to have a critical lens. But the research by Dr. Horas Wong, incredible. Um, he's- written a lot of papers around, um, the way language is translated in cultural context. So, um, whether that's simply from how some languages, there aren't actually concepts that do translate from English quite neatly to another, or whether it's the socialization of some of the words, and obviously socialization and stigma does carry weight when it comes to RSE.

[00:36:53] Um, incredible pieces of work that Dr. Horas has done, which I will send through for all to read. Um, because we do know that our English dictionary is full of gender bias and heteronormity- heteronormativity and racial and ethnic bias. Mm. So really, really, um, useful to have that sort of in your toolkit when it comes to RSE.

[00:37:13] Winnie Adamson: Mm. Yeah. I really love hearing both of your experiences here and those experiences of delivering RSE. And I wanna continue that and jump more into, um, talking what that looks like in those environments further. And as we've chatted on the couch here before with Lauren French, Katrina Marson, Dr.

[00:37:34] Giselle Woodley, Dr. Sarah Vrankovich just to name a few, evidence-based comprehensive RSE is a key driver to creating positive and safe outcomes for everyone. And schools are such a priority setting and play a significant role in creating safe, inclusive, and culturally responsive approaches to RSE, and not just for those young people themselves, but for parents, teachers, families, and those broader school communities.

[00:38:00] So Leon, as you specifically work with young people in school settings, how do you navigate this within the school system, and especially speaking to those teachers and embedding that whole-of-school approach?

[00:38:13] Leon Huxtable: Um, I'd love to say with great ease. Um- ... but w- with, with great effort and sometimes great difficulty.

[00:38:19] But it is something that we are, um, achieving. And just a note before answering the question, I mean, like, yeah, what a great list of people that you have put up there. I'm gonna pretend like I was, uh, mentioned in that sentence with all those wonderful people that I'm likely to spend time with and have as friends.

[00:38:35] Um, and that includes- Next episode. Yeah, maybe the next episode. I'll just keep adding people to the list. Yeah. Yeah. We'll

[00:38:38] Maddy Stratten: add you to the next

[00:38:39] Leon Huxtable: one. And again, listening to Karina's stuff, as much as we catch up, it's, I just love hearing about the work. Mm. And I can't wait for the national dance tour, um- Mm

[00:38:47] that we'll be expecting. Um, but, we've got a lot of great champions in this space that are doing a lot of great work. Um, so working directly in schools and on this topic, at SHV, like, part of our role is providing teacher training or training to professionals as well. Um, and in that training, making sure that what we're delivering, like, we're touching on this point.

[00:39:06] You know, we're, we're bringing it up. We're making sure that we're able to talk about the different groups and communities. And, um, that has been really, bolstered up by, uh, work that I was lucky enough to do on this project, where we were focusing specifically on this, this one school community, which is not something we, we often get the chance to do.

[00:39:22] You know, we, we jump in there, and we provide our sessions, and sometimes we don't get to have too much follow-up. So getting to spend two years in a community and really, um, get into the consultation process, the listening, the discussion, talking with young people and if they walked out of a session and being able to actually find out, you know, what, what's happening there was really, um, uh, helpful to me as an educator, but beneficial to us as an organization.

[00:39:44] So yeah, with the whole school approach, obviously training, um, working with the diverse, groups that we have. So rather than assuming that it's a barrier, a lot of the time there's some amazing, like, stuff that we can jump onto, and we can piggyback on and have the conversation with, um, or get someone from the community come and have that conversation too.

[00:40:07] Like, part of this project was having someone, um, come and be part of our, like, presentation who's from community. So it wasn't just people from outside community delivering this presentation. But yeah, I think it's that working with rather than, you know, immediately going, "Oh, this isn't gonna work, and, and it's gonna be a problem."

[00:40:23] Karina Reeves: Mm. Mm.

[00:40:23] Leon Huxtable: Um, because, I don't know, as an educator, I'm always gonna come back to education, but we can learn from each other. That's, that's what I love doing. I love learning. Um, and hopefully other people wanna learn as well. And so why not learn from people that are around us through conversation, consultation, through research, um, you know, through that deep listening?

[00:40:41] Um, I also think that it's that, uh- Focus on not tossing someone aside just because we disagree on one thing. So whether we agree on our religious beliefs or whether we agree on how to talk about, you know, menstruation, that doesn't mean that we can't work together. It means that we might have to find a way to find that midpoint, but we might agree on everything else.

[00:41:04] And I think it's really difficult sometimes, there's that approach of just saying, "I'm gonna shut you out 'cause we don't agree on this topic." And obviously there are some things there that are really core to people and totally understand that. But, um, I think religion's a good one, and something that, uh, growing up in a religious household, like, you know, it's something that I've had to sit with of going, "Well, my feelings and, uh, experience of it is not the same as everyone else."

[00:41:27] And especially with religion in a, in a lot of groups, it's a core part of their person and it's- You know, the research has said it's quite good for wellbeing when people are religious as well. And so if I come in and say, "Oh, let's not talk about religion," that doesn't match up with what I'm doing here, immediately putting people off as well.

[00:41:44] Mm. So I guess it's ... Yeah, a lot of it is about that, that working together and coming back to those core ideas. Um, obviously I said before, there's, there is great difficulty trying to work on these whole school approaches in general, um, especially in these spaces of migrant and refugee, communities. So we need lots more support for our teachers, um, especially when it's, like, about time for training and planning.

[00:42:08] Um, also time to deliver RSE well. You know, 45 minutes with 200 year nine students is n- not really the best scenario. Uh, we'd love those smaller classroom based things, and teachers would too. Like, most teachers are in teaching- Mm ... 'cause we wanna teach. Mm. Um, and so giving it that time is really important.

[00:42:27] Um, I also think, like, it's important to highlight, and, uh, uh, I'm coming as someone who has quit teaching twice. You know? Like, I stepped out of high school teaching i- in New South Wales, and then I stepped out of high school teaching in Victoria to now be in the role where I get to educate without all the other burdens.

[00:42:43] Um, and I know that teachers are really afraid of saying the wrong thing in, in this area specifically, and especially if they're faced with working in groups that are not the communities that they're from. And so we need to make sure that teachers feel backed and supported, especially by leadership.

[00:42:59] Like, that's the, the key thing here is leadership need to be on board. They need to be supporting the, the young people that are there. Um, and we also, like, wanna make sure it's shown, um, through actions rather than, just through, saying, "Oh, you will be supported." We've gotta see it happen. Um, and we also know that in the communities kind of cover everyone that is in there, um, parents and carers as well.

[00:43:23] So we've got parents and carers, and there has been a, a, a, I feel like a much larger call-out from parents and carers in the last couple of, like, months and couple of years of saying, "We would like some support too."

[00:43:32] Winnie Adamson: Mm.

[00:43:32] Leon Huxtable: So when it comes to RSE, making sure we're giving them that chance to learn and ask questions through information nights.

[00:43:38] Sometimes those information nights are just saying, "Here's what we're teaching," but other times it's saying, "It's your chance to learn because you didn't get this education." Uh, that's always the question of what sex education did you get, and it's always funny to hear the answers because it's usually pretty limited for people of our generation and above.

[00:43:53] Um, and as I kind of said before, like going out of, um, sometimes your comfort zone, but at least going out of your way to make sure that things are accessible. But Getting into the community physically. And it's also the best part, because I can tell you that from going out into these communities, the main thing they'll probably do is feed you, and then they'll have a great chat with you.

[00:44:11] And, uh, like, who doesn't wanna do that? What a great way to learn from someone else.

[00:44:16] Maddy Stratten: Mm.

[00:44:16] Leon Huxtable: And coming back to a word that, um, Karina used before, uh, we need more champions. So champions is what we think about when we go, "There's one teacher in the school," and they're the one pushing RSE, and they're saying, "We need to do it."

[00:44:28] If they're not supported by the leadership and the rest of the school, it's gonna be an uphill battle. Um, and so we need more people that are championing the work in the community, in the school. It does take work, but it makes it easier as well to, like, come in and, and have these chats.

[00:44:44] Mm. And just one other practical thing that I'll, I'll highlight, with that English language school that we worked with, one of the key things that we did, um, through mainly the work of my colleague, Joanna Anagnostou, um, was to, like, create, um, sheets for interpreters with key words on it to help that conversation.

[00:45:01] So rather than come in and say, "I'm just gonna say a bunch of words. Good luck with, uh, interpreting that, because there's not a, a word for that in your language," giving them time to prepare and say, "Here's what we've got." So that training is important to make it accessible to-

[00:45:14] Maddy Stratten: Yeah. Oh, thanks so much for sharing those practical tips.

[00:45:18] I know, our listeners will probably want to go back and re-listen to that again, particularly, um, those who are working in that school setting. But I really hear that authenticity come through it, it ... it's not, you know, a tick box and, "Yes, I went into community," and, "Yes, I was invited to something," and, "Yes, they fed me and it was great."

[00:45:35] But, like, what is the intention of doing that? And I, and I really hear that authenticity there, um, and it feels also you know, this really positive approach

[00:45:46] and so acknowledging those potential barriers to RSE rather than, I guess, thinking through a deficit lens and assuming these are the barriers. Like, what actually are they? Um, and let's not assume that because it actually might not be a barrier at all., And I love hearing as well, you know, your practice of recognizing the strength within, uh, cultural communities and with those school settings too, and the importance of, and I guess impact of inviting the whole of school ecosystem into RSE.

[00:46:16] Going beyond, as you said, those champion teachers and students. I guess there's ch- champion students in the classroom too. And really thinking about the, um, effective, sustainable RSE requiring that coordinated approach. So s- yeah, thanks so much for sharing, um, that and giving us that insight into, , this practice.

[00:46:37] Winnie Adamson: Mm-hmm.

[00:46:37] Maddy Stratten: Uh, Karina, I'll hand over to you now as I know, um, you've mentioned already that you're working in this community setting, which I imagine is very different to working in institutions like schools. And we'd be really interested to hear more from you. Um, how do you frame this when working with young people, adults?

[00:46:55] You mentioned peer leadership, um, and lived experience in the community.

[00:47:00] Karina Reeves: Yeah. Um, so in my experience of working with adult migrants in particular, I've found, um, a lot of different groups have more of a collectivist sort of way of thinking. Um, so I often do frame STI, consent, HIV education around not just that issue, but saying that this, um, education, this piece is about protecting and promoting good health for the whole family and the community.

[00:47:29] 'Cause I think there's really strong collectivism in a lot of different cultures. I've really experienced that, that, um, someone's behavior may not actually just be a result of their individual choices. We know that some people, um, take care of different family members within their household or they really, really have such a strong, like, peer community as well.

[00:47:49] So having that framing around, um, broader than just self and, and the broader community has been really effective. Um, and I've also found when it comes to, um, working with young people a little bit, um, Leon spoke to a bit of it before, but consultation's really key. And asking those questions, um, with curiosity, they always respond in just the funniest ways.

[00:48:13] When I was trying to talk about, um, body safety once, they kept, um ... One group of primary school students, um, from a refugee background kept talking about football and Ronaldo. So we ended up, um, using Ronaldo as like, a case study of speaking to body parts of that person, and everyone was just having a good laugh and it was a way to kind of, um, be able to have that conversation.

[00:48:38] Winnie Adamson: Mm.

[00:48:38] Karina Reeves: Um, and I also think when it comes to, um, working with community, um, I think we've spoken a lot about it before, but they are very creative and inspiring, and, and I think centering them as the experts in their own lives is in- incredibly helpful. Um,

[00:48:58] So in my experience with working with, um, young people from an LGBTQA+ identity and, um, those who were m- uh, born overseas, I was really inspired by a concept that I've learned only recently.

[00:49:13] When I was growing up, the notion of coming out was sort of the thing- Mm ... the terminology which describes disclosing your sexuality or gender identity or whatever part of yourself, and opening that up to someone, um, or the community around you, and having a sense of like that actually presenting in yourself.

[00:49:30] But when I was speaking to this young person, they told me about something which we sort of coined as inviting in, which is where, um, what we sort of likened it to was disclosure as being like a really personal choice whether you invite someone to that conversation instead of, I guess, wearing it on your sleeve.

[00:49:47] And of course, any disclosure is super personal, but they felt such a strength, I think, in that identity by just sort of disclosing to the people really close to them. And I think that really spoke to that young person's agency and their boundaries and their safety. And I know there's a lot we can unpack around those two concepts, but I still think if that's what they felt safe with, then let's roll with it.

[00:50:09] And I thought that was a really beautiful sentiment. Um, and then another one I just want to quickly touch on, I hope this is funny to anyone else other than me, but I was talking to, um, a young Chinese man, and he was saying that there's a colloquial thing where there is a one which represents a top and a zero which represents a bottom, and if you're a 0.5, you're a verse.

[00:50:34] And I just thought that was the funniest thing. Um, and that was something that was quite prominent, he said, in, uh, young male queer culture in that context. So yeah, definitely the creativity of education and socialization of, of concepts is, is something to consider

[00:50:51] Maddy Stratten: Yeah. That's so great. And yeah, hearing uh, directly from those communities about those, difference of, um, language and also I would imagine, you know, not assuming, again, these assumptions that this language is going to be appropriate for this community, um, because that's the country that they were born.

[00:51:12] So I, yeah, I bet it does, bring up opportunities to have a, a little bit of a connection and a giggle and, um, you know, get it wrong and then learn and move forward. So that's really great to hear that.

[00:51:24] Uh, we've covered a lot of different conversations and topics today um, with our listeners who are gonna be continuing to engage and getting involved in their own practice., Um, we just wanted to hand over you, to you to have some final thoughts

[00:51:40] Karina Reeves: thank you. I think that's a challenge, the final thought. Um, but I think we've all spoken to this a lot today about how, uh, creative and inspiring it is in this space, and working with people who might look and, um, be different to you, from a different culture. Um, so I think it's always incredibly important to involve community, as we've spoken to, um, and, and feel that sort of excitement.

[00:52:05] I feel like It's always been there, but we're on the cusp of figuring out what best practice is, and that's what cultural responsiveness kind of speaks to. It's always learning and, as you said, Maddy, get it wrong, that's fine- Mm ... as long as we're not doing any harm. Learning from it, being self-reflective, and finding a way forward.

[00:52:23] Mm-hmm.

[00:52:26] Leon Huxtable: Yeah, I think, like, um, you know, the first thing I note at the start of all the sessions with young people is that diversity is the best part about being human. We need it to continue. But, like, no two people are the same. As I said before, like, we say not even identical twins are the same.

[00:52:39] Um, and I think it's important to celebrate that and also make it clear through RSE that that diversity is, is needed and, and, you know, wonderful. Like, it, it, it really is. Um, and I think it's come up a lot but just again the reminder and those messages of get out into the community, listen deeply and listen to understand, and make sure you're highlighting the voices of all people, but especially with my work about young people, all young people.

[00:53:08] Try to, try your best to make sure they're all represented or as many as you can possibly have from as many different communities, 'cause that makes our work much richer. Um, and the last thing is just, um, it came up before and it's just something that, like, really helps me in my work that has come from working at SHV, but not getting stuck in those values battles.

[00:53:28] Like, we don't wanna get stuck there because it's not really gonna be beneficial for anyone, which is why we have that term of values fair, not values free.

[00:53:25] Winnie Adamson: Thanks for listening to On The Couch. We create this podcast because we are allies in actively challenging discrimination, microaggressions, and exclusionary behaviors.

[00:53:50] Maddy Stratten: We wanna create spaces where people feel safe to share their thoughts, knowing that they will be heard and respected. Such an environment fosters collaboration, innovation, and contributes to a more inclusive society.

[00:54:02] Winnie Adamson: Follow us on your favorite podcast platform. That way, you will receive every new episode when it's released. You can also help us grow the podcast by giving us a rating and leaving us a review.

[00:54:13] Maddy Stratten: Connect with us on Instagram, Facebook, and LinkedIn, and share On The Couch with your friends, colleagues, and family.

[00:54:19]Winnie Adamson: On The Couch is made by the team at Caddyshack Project. Until next time, peace, love, and protection.