[00:00:00] Maddy Stratten: Hi, and welcome to another episode of On The Couch, where we collaborate with experts, practitioners, authors, advocates, and influencers to explore current social themes, sex positive topics, and share stories and insights that matter.
[00:00:24] Winnie Adamson: This podcast was recorded on Aboriginal country. We Acknowledge the traditional custodians of the lands that were never ceded on which we live, work, and record upon.
[00:00:33] Maddy Stratten: We pay our respect to elders past and present, and to those who may be visiting our website or listening to our podcast today.
[00:00:40] Winnie Adamson: While listening, we encourage you to practice good self-care, and of course, check the show notes for further information.
[00:00:45] Maddy Stratten: Wherever you are, whatever you're doing-
[00:00:47] Winnie Adamson: Enjoy this episode of On The Couch
[00:00:51] Maddy Stratten: I'm Maddy Stratten, and I'm here with my co-host and friend, Winnie Adamson
[00:00:56] Winnie Adamson: Hi, Maddy. I'm really keen to get into today's episode, as we're gonna be chatting about intimacy, wellness, inclusion, and human rights for people living with a disability.
[00:01:05] Maddy Stratten: . And to dive into this topic today, we're joined by two incredible guests on the couch, Saul Isbister and Katia Schwartz from Touching Base.
[00:01:14] So we'd like to start this episode with a content warning, as there may be references to ableism and whorephobia, along with some potential mentions of non-consensual sexual activity and abuse.
[00:01:26] Winnie Adamson: . As always, we'd like to introduce our guests using the concept of fields of existence and coordinates of belonging by Co-Culture Communications, which demonstrate that our beings are a field of activity made up of the stories we've been told, our ancestors that have existed, the land under our feet, and the places that we stand, and how all of these enforce who we are in this moment as contextual beings.
[00:01:51] So starting with you, Saul, how do you define and locate yourself, and what are your coordinates of belonging?
[00:01:58] Saul Isbister: Well, I've gotta say, you know, it's not easy to condense 60 years of, uh, fields of existence and coordinates of being into five minutes, but I'm gonna do my honest best. So my Pānami pendant indicates that I was lucky to grow up in Aotearoa, New Zealand, um, in the 1960s and the 1970s.
[00:02:18] Um, we lived on the edge of a small country town, um, called Carterton, which was located in the Wairarapa Valley at the very bottom of the North Island. And, uh, I was lucky to grow up in a house that my parents built, and we lived on six acres where we grew our own food and, um, raised animals. I lived there with my three sisters, and it was very safe and privileged life.
[00:02:41] Today, when I look out the window, I see Gadigal land, and I pay my respects to the elders past and present, um, as since I've lived in Australia, I have lived on Gadigal land for the last 30 years. But I admit I don't feel a strong connection to this land. I've come from New Zealand. I'm a Kiwi at heart, a barefoot Kiwi kid is how I see myself often.
[00:03:07] But before even I came here, I already had a sense of cultural impoverishment from coming from colonial roots forcibly planted into other people's country. And then just late last year before Christmas, my subconscious prompted me to do, do a search on ancestry.com and have a look through my ancestral roots, and it's amazing how much information people can always already feed into your family tree in ancestry.com.
[00:03:40] So it didn't take me more than a few days for my father's family to get back to the 1530s, and then even one reference to 1320 from a relative down his line, which is 800 years, which is a significant link that I never really knew or understand those, how those roots went back. Um, and then also found out my great-great-great-great-great-grandfather, um, the land that he grew up on and the state that he developed is still in that family, so I still do have some ancestral roots somewhere in, on the earth, and I really look forward to finally walking on that land sometime in the future.
[00:04:17] Maddy Stratten: Mm.
[00:04:17] Saul Isbister: And this has given me a new sense of connectedness.
[00:04:21] Maddy Stratten: Mm.
[00:04:22] Saul Isbister: Um, on my mother's family, um, we had Exclusive Brethren as cousins, and, you know, as a gay whore, I'm not on their Christmas card list, eh? But, um, we also had other cousins who were staunch labor unionists, and I remember at the kitchen table as a kid after dinner hearing Uncle Johnny talk about their activities in the waterfront strike of 1951 in New Zealand, which was, you know, there were blood, there was blood on the streets.
[00:04:49] The government had passed laws that it was illegal to even to provide food for the strikers or their families. And Uncle Johnny was a printer, and at night they would go around with this Gazettner, which was an old-fashioned printing machine, a heavy piece of machinery that they would, in order to stay one step ahead of the police where they were printing these illegal pamphlets, they would meet in dark places and move the Gazettner from one boot of one car to another.
[00:05:14] So I grew up hearing these stories of, you know, heroic stories and that was really inspiring.
[00:05:22] Katia Schwartz: Mm.
[00:05:22] Saul Isbister: Um, and I think has led partly my forays into social justice. Um, then when I was 18, I had a neighbor who was a witch, and she introduced me to Wicca and rituals, and I've been really thankful to have the opportunity to focus on nature and rituals to connect my own rich inner world with my outer world.
[00:05:47] Which sort of leads on to when I was 22, I was getting some hypnotherapy to stop smoking, and my therapist was saying, "Rather than talking to your subconscious, your subconscious, is there a name it would like to be known by?" And here, inside my head on the right-hand side, I clearly heard the word Henry.
[00:06:08] Katia Schwartz: Mm.
[00:06:08] Saul Isbister: Well, yes, Henry it is. And then after a few sessions, I, I realized that if someone else can have a close conversational relationship with my subconscious, Henry, why can't I? And that was the beginning of over 40 years of an amazing relationship. The third book I have planned will be Henry and I: Beyond Serendipity.
[00:06:30] To talk about what happens when you connect with your subconscious-
[00:06:34] Katia Schwartz: Mm ...
[00:06:34] Saul Isbister: which is connected to everything else. I was working as a part-time escort in a small regional town. I was only getting one job every 10 days, so that was a hobby, not an occupation. I had to step away. Then I got a calling, literally out of the blue.
[00:06:51] This time it was a voice, not from inside my head, but from the sky going, "Ishtar." And people around me didn't hear it. And I know it's not considered good to hear voices, but in this case, it was a call back to work that I have never regretted.
[00:07:05] Winnie Adamson: Mm.
[00:07:06] Saul Isbister: For me, sex work is based around boundaries and connection, which is also the basis of many rituals, and I've benefited enormously from the thousands and thousands of people that I've had the opportunity to have sexual connections with.
[00:07:24] Katia Schwartz: Mm.
[00:07:26] Saul Isbister: Everything in my life led me to the origins of Touching Base, and my aspirations are that shame is removed from sex, and that the professional choices of sex workers and the sexual choices of people with disability are respected and honored in acknowledgement of the meaningful connections
[00:07:50] Maddy Stratten: Yeh, Thank you so much, And I had planned to say this later on in, our conversation, but I feel really led to say it now just hearing your story and your, um, reflections of, of how you've landed where you've landed. And so before we move on and, and hear Katia's coordinates of belonging, I just want to take a moment here on, on behalf of, everyone who is online today, to thank you for your work and the work that you've done over the last 20-plus years, and the work that you're continuing to do, and what we'll hear in this episode around advocating, training, connecting, and leading the way in this space.
[00:08:31] And so I just wanted to take a moment now to, um, to thank you for that before we hand over to Katia. Um, how would you define and locate yourself?
[00:08:44] Katia Schwartz: Hello everybody, I'm Katia. My pronouns are she/her, and I'm, uh, speaking to you from Gadigal Country, which is where I live and where a lot of my life and my community is, is based.
[00:08:59] So I am ... I've been a sex worker for nearly 18 years. Um, so that means that it's been basically a part of my whole adult life. Um, I started as a stripper when I was really young, um, and over the years I've worked through lots of different parts of the industry. So, um, I've worked every type of different sex work that you can possibly think of, like brothels, massage parlors.
[00:09:31] Um, I've done, like, private independent work, um, and also I did, like, showgirl stripping, competitions. I think ... Yeah, i, I've done a lot of different things. Um, and I'm also deaf. I'm profoundly deaf, and, I have a disability, so I've got Meniere's disease, um, which is like a balance disorder, and it works almost like, um, what was it?
[00:09:56] The ... It's like the chicken and the egg theory. So, um, what came first? Did Meniere's cause deafness, or did deafness cause Meniere's? And no one really knows. Um, but my relationship, with my disability and my deafness, has changed enormously through my life. So I was misdiagnosed.
[00:10:17] I didn't get diagnosed- Oh ... as deaf until I was a teenager. Um, but I haven't had hearing in my left ear for m- I would say the majority of my whole life. And I spent a lot of time without a diagnosis where people came to the conclusion that I wasn't very intelligent, um, and instead of not being able to hear.
[00:10:50] So I think I spent a lot of time in my life, um, learning how to exist in a hearing world, and not knowing that that was, uh, that deafness was something I was experiencing, because I could still hear, um, in one of my ears. Yeah. so I Did, I think, eight years of speech therapy when I was a kid, um, to learn how to talk.
[00:11:17] Um, and I did a lot of work on, trying to hide my disability for a really long time. Mm. And then when I was, uh, my late teens, I got a, like a deaf diagnosis, so I got my first pair of hearing aids at, in my, in my 20s. And because I grew up in a hearing family I only met one other deaf person, growing up, and that was my grandmother. Um, and she had a really poor relationship with her deafness, and this is really common for people of her age because, uh, you know, signed languages were, considered and still are considered not as, superior or as, as important as, uh, spoken languages.
[00:12:07] And so she was banned to sign. She didn't have, any access to language, stuff like that. Mm. So, It was difficult growing up and seeing that the only person that I had almost to, like look up to was somebody that, really was not proud of who she was. And so I think growing up, it's really difficult to see what your future is when you don't have representation, of what you can be and, like what you can do with your life.
[00:12:41] And, um, in my early 20s, it was the first time in my life that I had seen somebody, just not care about what anyone thought and, um, just unapologetically used Auslan, which- Mm
[00:12:58] is Australian Sign Language. And I ... That was when I started learning Auslan. Um, I ... It's funny because I was so against using Auslan, or the thought of using sign language, because obviously I had spent so many years, um, like working on speech. Yeah. And, um, you know, like conditioned or brainwashed, I guess into thinking that speech is superior.
[00:13:27] And I thought, "Why would I need to learn Auslan when I can speak, and I can already exist in a hearing world?" But I guess the issue with that is that I, there's no, there's, there's no sense of belonging. And I think that that was something I experienced when I entered the deaf world too.
[00:13:48] Mm. Because I was almost too deaf for the hearing world, and then too hearing for the deaf world. Mm. And so I think that a lot of my life has been spent, um, trying to find a sense of belonging and community. And, the sex worker community has been a community that I feel accepted and grounded in, uh, because a lot of sex workers have disabilities.
[00:14:15] 'Cause it offers a, a flexible type of employment, for us that we can manage ourselves, so there's lots of us. Um, and there's that sort of shared understanding of not, of not belonging, and sort of being on the fringe. Um, and I can say that that's, yeah, the same for people with disability too.
[00:14:35] I think finding the disability community, and meeting other deaf people, and not just meeting other deaf people that were born deaf, um, and grew up signing, but also people who were born deaf and were not exposed to signing, and then people who were born hearing and then were, uh, you know, got introduced to deafness later in life.
[00:15:00] Mm. So it's, uh, such a huge and diverse community, both of the communities that I'm part of. Um, so I think- That is probably where I locate myself today
[00:15:15] Maddy Stratten: Yeah
[00:15:16] Katia Schwartz: So, you know, a deaf, disabled sex worker. And I'm really proud, uh, to belong to the communities that I am in because I think that I have contributed and also, received quite a lot of, I guess support and understanding from both and- Mm.
[00:15:33] Yeah, I now work at Scarlet Alliance, which is the, our national sex workers association, um, in Australia, um, so-called Australia.
[00:15:44] Maddy Stratten: Mm-hmm.
[00:15:44] Katia Schwartz: And I am also a volunteer at Touching Base every now and again as well.
[00:15:50] Maddy Stratten: Amazing. Thank you so much, Katia, and it's really nice to hear and actually take a bit of time to hear when you went through that experience and, and got the diagnosis and found this connection and this sense of belonging within these two groups.
[00:16:05] And, and I think our audience will be really keen to hear more about that story as we go through.
[00:16:11] Um, so we'd like to start today with a, a quote from Touching Base website, uh, and an important statement for our work, and I think a really good way to set the scene for today's chat. "Physical intimacy is a human right, not an extra." So for our audience who may be listening because you're working in the disability space, perhaps you're doing some work around comprehensive sexuality and relationships education or in the sexual violence prevention space, or maybe you're joining because you're curious and you're wanting to broaden your perspectives of sex and the role of sex workers in our society, this is a safe space and while listening, we really encourage you to allow yourself to sit with any discomfort and question any potential biases that may arise when we're talking about sex and disability, and of course, take breaks and take good self-care.
[00:17:02] Winnie Adamson: Absolutely. And when we were putting this episode together, we were reflecting on our past episode with sex worker and academic Rachel Wotton and lived experience guest Mohammed Samrah Sex, Disability, and Human Rights. Rachel's advocacy work in the disability community's access to sex work services is really inspiring, and hearing Mohammed share the impact of how sex work services transformed his life as a man living with a disability was such an important reminder of that statement from Touching Base.
[00:17:33] Maddy Stratten: Mm.
[00:17:34] Winnie Adamson: And both really bringing awareness of disability-specific sexual support needs of people with a disability.
[00:17:41] Maddy Stratten: Yeah, and so we thought it'd be really important to start with a reminder of a couple of key facts. We are all sexual beings. Sexual and physical intimacy are core to the human experience.
[00:17:54] People with a disability are worthy of meaningful, intimate relationships and experiences. Sex work is legal and decriminalized in many parts of Australia. Respect, boundaries, communication, and consent are central to any sexual experience. Pleasurable and safe sexual experiences are explicitly included in the World Health Organization's definition of sexual health.
[00:18:21] Winnie Adamson: Yeah, it's so good to start with these statements and facts, and it's really important to highlight as we dive into this conversation. And we talk about that last point a lot, and it's- Mm ... so critical to have the way we talk about sexual health and sexual health promotion programs that we deliver, specifically this On The Couch podcast series.
[00:18:41] We also wanna make mention of the theme of the 2026 World Sexual Health Day, which was Every Body. Every Body means creating a world where people with disabilities are fully included and valued. And we are wanting to dive into that intimacy, wellness, inclusion, and human rights for every body.
[00:18:59] Maddy Stratten: Mm-hmm.
[00:18:59] Winnie Adamson: We know there's an intersection between sex work and disability, and also why it's important, but we wanna hear today from your lived experience and work in this space, Katia and Saul So Katia, starting with you. As a sex worker with a disability, what are your thoughts here?
[00:19:18] Katia Schwartz: So I think that a lot of the discourse, in the media, and what we hear about when we think about sex work and disability, um, people often approach it, like, with the intersection of, disability and sex work being from the client's perspective.
[00:19:36] Um, so, disabled clients seeking sex workers, um, which obviously is really important, and that's, that is a part of it as well, but, we sometimes forget that disabled sex workers also exist. Um, and what I was saying before, so there's actually a lot of us. Like, mainstream employment is just so inaccessible for a lot of disabled people and chronically ill people, so sex work just offers a sense of flexibility and n- another way of working.
[00:20:06] Um, but on the other hand, being a disabled sex worker also means, uh, navigating two different forms of stigma at the same time, uh, which can be tricky. So I, I like to describe myself as a bit of an anomaly, because society gives me two really contradictory messages. So as a disabled person, I'm told that I'm not sexual.
[00:20:31] I'm infantilized. I'm desexualized. I'm treated as unattractive or assumed to not want sex, relationships, intimacy. Yeah. But then on the other hand, as a sex worker, I'm told I'm too sexual. I'm, I'm almost, like, hypersexualized and treated as if, uh, the sex part of my job and my life is the only part.
[00:20:58] Um, I don't really know how it's happened like this, because I feel like I'm somehow simultaneously not sexual enough and also too sexual. Mm-hmm. Um, so that's a really interesting, uh, perspective as well.
[00:21:13] Maddy Stratten: Yeah.
[00:21:13] Katia Schwartz: Um, you know, obviously there's a stigma and discrimination that I face as a, um, you know, disabled person and also as a sex worker, but, there's also really amazing positives about being a disabled sex worker as well, right?
[00:21:25] So there's always, the other side to the story. Mm. uh, and I think that my disability has given me a really different understanding of access and communication, and in some ways provides a really huge and incredible advantage, um, with my work. So sex work involves a huge amount of communication, and that's stuff like negotiating boundaries, checking consent.
[00:21:56] Um, you know, as a sex worker, you work out, what does my client actually want? Um, and there isn't one way that people communicate those things. People communicate in different ways. And I think that my own experiences with disability, and also I have a communication disability, and often people, um, stigmatize me or, and deaf people in general as being poor communicators.
[00:22:25] Maddy Stratten: Mm.
[00:22:25] Katia Schwartz: But we are actually fantastic communicators. Um, and that's because all deaf people, um, exist in an environment where everybody else makes zero effort and we make 100% of the effort. Um, so- I use that to my advantage. Body language is something that I can read into really well. Um, and I think that people just really overlook that a lot.
[00:22:59] Um, and I think definitely gives me an edge, uh, compared to able-bodied sex workers who often, you know, when you're in a brothel, environment, like context and you're working, um, it's not in competition with others. Like it's, it's not really like that, but it kind of is sometimes because you have to almost go out into your intro room and meet the client, and then the client has to pick which worker they want.
[00:23:26] Maddy Stratten: Right.
[00:23:26] Katia Schwartz: So, um, it, you know, it's a bit of a sales thing. So- Mm ... um, reading and being able to predict what that person wants, um, gives you an advantage in that situation. So while I might stuff up lip reading or not being able to understand everything, I can understand what they're saying in different ways.
[00:23:47] Winnie Adamson: Mm.
[00:23:47] Katia Schwartz: Sometimes when you have any kind of intersection or any kind of identity, where you are marginalized, um, I think that clients who are also marginalized in, in, um, the same way that you are, or just, um, marginalized in general, often seek comfort in somebody that understands, their perspective.
[00:24:10] And, um, you know, clients have told me, that they don't want to see me because I'm, I, I'm deaf, I, s- you know, 'cause obviously I don't look deaf 'cause what does a deaf person look like? You can't tell. , So sometimes, you know, when I'm in that environment, I don't advertise it that I'm deaf ,, especially in a brothel introduction because, you don't have a very long time, and often people will stigmatize you before you've even been able to sell yourself.
[00:24:39] But then when you get into the room, you, you kind of have to say that you're deaf because-
[00:24:43] Maddy Stratten: Mm ...
[00:24:44] Katia Schwartz: there's a lot of ... The ... You have to tell the person that if you're facing the opposite direction, they ask you a question- That's practical ...
[00:24:50] Maddy Stratten: You're
[00:24:52] Katia Schwartz: not gonna hear them. So, um, and there has been a lot of times where clients have not known what to do with that information and treated me very poorly about that or, um, felt sorry for me and/or have no longer seen me as a sexual person.
[00:25:08] Um, and it's really interesting having that, uh, contrast within 30 seconds. Um, and So it is a disadvantage in that way. Uh, but also, I choose to disclose my disability when I feel that it would benefit me, and when it benefits me, it's when I have another disabled person as a client walk into the intro room.
[00:25:32] Mm. And I think to myself, "Yes." And then I say, "Oh, do you think you could just, um ... Uh, I just ... Can you say that again? I'm deaf."
[00:25:43] I know what they've said. I'm really good at lip reading. And I can hear a little bit with my hearing aid. But, um, yeah, I find that in those situations people do choose me because- Mm
[00:25:59] they, they want to see somebody where they don't feel judged. Mm-hmm. They want to see somebody that doesn't make assumptions about, like, what their body can and can't do, before that person has even asked. So- Mm ... I think having a disability and being a sex worker is, is an advantage for, for that as well.
[00:26:20] And I think that that just shows that it's a really beautiful thing that sex workers can provide, which is like a space where people can make choices about their own body and- Mm ... um, be able to communicate what they want and have those choices respected. And obviously my experience is only one disabled sex worker's experience, and disability is so diverse and , even two people with the same disability can have completely different access needs.
[00:26:47] Um, which is actually, where I think, we can hear from Saul because-
[00:26:51] Maddy Stratten: Mm ...
[00:26:51] Katia Schwartz: I mean, Saul if you wanna talk a little bit about, um, Touching Base
[00:26:56] Saul Isbister: Yeah, sure. So I guess I'll give a little bit of introduction to the origins of Touching Base too, which I think people might be interested in.
[00:27:03] So in- That'd be great ... in 2000, I'd been in Sydney for five years, and I was looking into what training I could get into to improve my pr professional services as a sex worker and a hands-on sex therapist. Um, but nothing was available locally, so I met up with a sexual health counselor and disability filmmaker who had strong interest in this stuff, and we acknowledged that there were three groups that sex surrogates were trained to work with overseas: people with disability, survivors of sexual abuse, and people with sexual functioning issues.
[00:27:35] Maddy Stratten: Mm.
[00:27:35] Saul Isbister: So we soon realized that people with disability were the first group to start with for, for a few reasons. There were far more support organizations and services for people with disability than the other groups, um, although since 2000 much more support has come about for survivors of sexual abuse.
[00:27:52] Um, speaking of which, people with disability experience just vastly higher rates of sexual abuse than the general public- Mm ... which is always a statistic that horrified me, and some people with disability experience sexual functioning issues arising from their disability. Um, so in October 2000, Touching Base was founded by sex workers, people with disabilities, some disabled sex workers, and our supporters, and we had our first forum.
[00:28:20] And by sharing our stories and what we wanted from each other, we discovered that as marginalized communities, sex workers and people with disabilities have many common experiences, and that was a genuinely bonding moment. So under our constitution, excuse me, uh, people with disability and sex workers must make up the majority of our committee of management, but we truly appreciate and enjoy the support of contributions of others who are dedicated to our work as well.
[00:28:47] That's really important to us. So even though we've never had core funding, we're run by volunteers, we were thrilled to celebrate our 25th anniversary last year. Mm. And one of the first things that Touching Base did get into then was training. So we initially developed a three-day training program that was in person, um, at the time, um, hosted by Family Planning New South Wales, and that was a really comprehensive training program that went beyond awareness training because we were in person, we'd be able to do some practical application stuff as well.
[00:29:19] Maddy Stratten: Mm.
[00:29:19] Saul Isbister: So we did things like supported falling or, you know, transfer type stuff and how, um, s- successfully maneuver someone without harming your back. So but since we've had to go online, we now just run the professional awareness training, so we can't offer those practical hands-on skills through an online format.
[00:29:39] Um, but it has proved to be an amazing course, and there's not that many opportunities for sex workers to get together to learn from and with each other to expand our professional repertoire- Mm ... for our work. You know, so it really kind of stands out, and sex workers really appreciate that opportunity for peer education.
[00:30:00] It's just a, it's the way to go.
[00:30:03] Winnie Adamson: Mm.
[00:30:04] Maddy Stratten: Mm. Thanks so much, Saul and Katia. I'm, I'm glad that we, you know, landed on that really positive note, but unfortunately I am gonna take us back to stigma and discrimination- Mm ... because they are, you know, reoccurring themes that are still arising when we're talking about sex work and disability, as you both have said.
[00:30:23] Um, in particular thinking about ableism and whorephobia and, you know, Katia, I really heard what you were saying earlier about sex workers who are often hypersexualized and seen as sexual objects, and then people with a disability are often infantilized, desexualized, and seen to be asexual or non-sexual.
[00:30:44] And there's a lot of assumptions that are made about people with a disability and a lot of misconceptions about sex work, and so I'm thinking about, you know, fetishization here as well. Uh, can you talk us through a little bit more about some of these stigma and discrimination?
[00:31:00] Katia Schwartz: Yeah. So- I'll take us back to, uh, when I let the client know.
[00:31:12] "Yes, I'm a deaf person." Yeah. "But you don't look deaf." And I'm going to myself, I go like, "What do you think a deaf person looks like?" And I always challenge them. I'm like, "Oh, really? What do you think I l- would look like? What do you, what does deaf people look like?" Mm. And they always get stumped, you know?
[00:31:33] Um- And I think, like, when they say that, they're often... Like, what they're actually communicating is that I don't fit the image of disability that they have in their head. So I'm, I'm very conventionally attractive. There is a lot of representation of people that look like me, out there in mainstream media, and I think that a lot of that representation doesn't include conventionally attractive people with disability.
[00:32:06] Um, disabled people are often portrayed as, um, you know, in... If we look at, like, movies even from the past, uh, evil characters always are portrayed as, uh, people with a facial difference or, you know, um, people with disability are, are laughed at. Like, we are the butt of the joke in mainstream media, and I think that all of this, uh, representation that we see, it it's like a subliminal messaging.
[00:32:38] It's drilled into ourself, uh, our subconscious selves that these people look like this.
[00:32:47] Maddy Stratten: Mm.
[00:32:48] Katia Schwartz: And we don't. Mm. And attractiveness, and beauty is just, it's subjective. Um, and it's also not. You know? Because, often the media tells us and society tells us- Mm ... what is attractive and what isn't.
[00:33:04] Um, often when I say I'm a sex worker and I look like this, people go, "Oh, yeah." And then I say I'm deaf, and then they're just like, "Okay, that doesn't compute. The maths doesn't maths here." And then it's like, "Oh, but you look too pretty to be deaf."
[00:33:26] Maddy Stratten: Mm.
[00:33:28] Katia Schwartz: And, um, it does sound like a compliment, right?
[00:33:32] Maddy Stratten: Mm.
[00:33:32] Katia Schwartz: But it's not. There's actually this belief that this person has about you, that, um, attractiveness and, a disability are mutually exclusive. Mm. Um, you know, and then there's this really strange combination of, like, desexualization and also sexual entitlement.
[00:33:52] So, you know, disabled people can be treated like we- couldn't possibly have sex, you know? Um, but at the same time, why do they always feel so entitled to ask us really invasive questions about how our bodies, and our sex lives intersect?
[00:34:10] Like, I remember I was at a, a wedding, a straight wedding And I was sitting across from somebody who...
[00:34:18] Oh, I had an Auslan. i'm always treated differently when I have an Auslan interpreter
[00:34:22] Maddy Stratten: Right. Mm-hmm ...
[00:34:23] Katia Schwartz: often because they're like, "Oh, she can't talk. She can't make noise" also because I'm signing, right? Like-
[00:34:28] Maddy Stratten: Mm-hmm ...
[00:34:28] Katia Schwartz: which I prefer to do. Um, and she asks my Auslan interpreter, out of the blue,
[00:34:34] She also doesn't ask me. She asks my Auslan interpreter. She goes, " can you ask her a question for me?" And the Auslan interpreter's like, "You can ask her yourself." Mm. , Like, she's not looking at me. She's looking at my interpreter as well, 'cause they get confused.
[00:34:47] They don't know what to do. They don't see me as a person. They just see me as this, like, creature. I don't... And then they go, um, "So, uh, can you ask her, um, , do you make noises when you have sex?" Mm. And I'm going, "The actual heck are you talking about?" And like, you're put in these positions where, like, it happens so many times.
[00:35:10] Other people with disability go this too. People feel like they have a right to know things, like, about your body and the way it works because they're just curious and they see you- Mm ... as, um, like a thing and I feel like some people, um, some of my friends when they are asked this stuff, they have like really good replies but I just get really shocked and I don't know what to say.
[00:35:34] Mm. So I say nothing. I'm kind of like, "Oh, yes, I can talk," you know?
[00:35:38] Maddy Stratten: Yeah, because it's an attack.
[00:35:40] Katia Schwartz: Right. Mm. And I think that's also... That kind of leads into fetishization, which what you were talking about before and it's like, um,
[00:35:50] I feel like there's a huge difference in finding, someone with a dis- disability attractive because of just, like, who they are as a human being and, like, reducing that disabled person to their disability, and or finding that part of them sexy. Like, I, um, you know, I, I have a client who has a disability, 'cause, like, internalized ableism is a thing as well, and, um, I have internalized ableism too sometimes.
[00:36:19] It's really hard to, um, recondition yourself or decondition yourself. I think I've got a client and normally when I see clients with disability, I'm like, "Oh, yay. Somebody who's like not gonna ask me weird questions." But this one client booked me because he thought I was lesser than, like, compared to the other sex workers, and he made that really known to me, and it's because he sees himself as less.
[00:36:45] And so he feels too intimidated to see somebody that he views as better than him. So, um, that can also be like fetishization too, I think. Mm. Um, or like, "I've never had sex with a deaf person before. What it's like?" Mm. And I'm like, "We got all the same holes, babe." "There's not much difference." Um, they say sometimes they'll say to me, "Oh, but you can speak real good." And then you like divert it and you say, "Yeah, and , just wait until you see what else I can do with my mouth."
[00:37:21] Winnie Adamson: Yeah.
[00:37:22] Katia Schwartz: You gotta divert it, right?
[00:37:23] Winnie Adamson: Yeah.
[00:37:23] Katia Schwartz: Um, so yeah. I think like it's, the problem is just like curiosity, right?
[00:37:29] It's like-
[00:37:30] Winnie Adamson: Mm ...
[00:37:31] Katia Schwartz: you know, when does ... Like, it becomes this belief that someone has a, a, like a right to information- Mm ... about you and your body, um, access to your body simply 'cause you're disabled, and it's the same- as being a sex worker.
[00:37:44] Maddy Stratten: Yeah. It's this assumed, assumed access to a person because you're curious and, and where's that boundary of being- Mm ... curious? I think we should all be curious because that's how we learn, but then it's going actually too far and it's not curiosity at all. It's, it's, you know, those attacks like you were explaining at the wedding masked in curiosity.
[00:38:09] Winnie Adamson: Mm.
[00:38:10] Maddy Stratten: Saul, did you have, um, some thoughts here? And I'm also thinking particularly around Touching Base and being aware about people with fetishes in, in being involved in that organization
[00:38:23] Saul Isbister: Yes, certainly. So we're aware that, you know, there is a potential for people with dis- dishes to infiltrate our work, so we require that, um, sex workers have at least three months experience working with general clients before being eligible to go onto our referral list.
[00:38:39] I mean, partly that's to weed out the people who are only interested in people with disability. Mm. But also we need sex workers to be aware of the logistics of working within their local environment, what resources are available, and to get a modus operandi for how they do actually successfully work in the industry because, you know, some people are challenged by it.
[00:38:59] Katia Schwartz: Mm.
[00:38:59] Saul Isbister: Um, but the other aspect you're talking about was, um, you know, misconceptions and stigma and discrimination. So in our training workshops, we actually do a series of workshops to identify and name myths and stereotypes that are commonly projected onto sex workers.
[00:39:14] Maddy Stratten: Mm.
[00:39:15] Saul Isbister: And then we do the same exercise identifying myths and stereotypes that people might hold around the sexuality of people with disability.
[00:39:23] And our awesome training coordinator, Emma Softly, who we're very sad to say is stepping down, um, came up with this Venn diagram to show, where the differences lie, um, and where they overlap. Some of the differences are that sex workers are seen as druggies, having sexually transmitted infections, that we're homewreckers, only want your money, and can't be trusted.
[00:39:46] People with disability, um, there's the thoughts that they can't consent, that they can't physically have sex, that sex is not important to them, or that they shouldn't have sex. And then what's interesting there is the commonality, where we share common stigma and discrimination based on how some people and organizations see us, so that we are exploited, sex crazy, can't have real relationships, are less than, don't contribute to society, have poor hygiene, shouldn't be parents, are uneducated or desperate So that's, you know, the sort of stuff that is out there.
[00:40:27] And when we're looking at these things, we say we're not taking these things on board. My saying is, "Don't wear other people's shit as a fragrance."
[00:40:36] Katia Schwartz: Mm-hmm.
[00:40:36] Saul Isbister: Don't let it stick. And if you respect and honor the work that you do, that can be a shield. Not a, not an ego-based shield, but a, a shield that comes from a genuine understanding that the work that we do does have meaning and value in society, and that is what can shield you from some of that stigma and discrimination.
[00:40:56] Winnie Adamson: Mm-hmm. Absolutely. Um, you've already both started sharing some of the ways you challenge stigma and overcome those discriminations, but was there anything further you wanted to add to that? Saul?
[00:41:10] Saul Isbister: Yeah, sure. So when we do this exercise, we do follow it up immediately with another task to identify how we can overcome negative attitudes and beliefs.
[00:41:19] So I'm gonna read out some of the ways our sex workers who have done our workshop have, um, put up notes on a note board. So how do we change these views? Start conversations. Ask questions rather than make assumptions. Don't be a bystander. Model the value and the behaviors ourselves we want others to engage in.
[00:41:40] Challenge views and narratives. Stay up to date and educated. Seeking realistic and well-rounded examples in the media. Connecting with peer orgs and disability sexuality educators. More representation in movies and TV and media of sexy character roles played by people with disability.
[00:42:05] Katia Schwartz: Mm.
[00:42:05] Saul Isbister: You know? Um, inclusive and accessible facilities for all.
[00:42:09] Getting over fears of difference, and deliberately including to ensure representation. So I think those are some, powerful ways that we can help to change. And we've certainly seen an evolution over time from when Not Touching Base first started in 2000. We were told, "This is not a topic that people want to be visually confronted with on TV.
[00:42:31] This is only for radio." Mm. So then in 2000, the late John Blades, um, was living with advanced multiple sclerosis, and he produced an ABC radio program called The Too Hard Basket with a series of interviews about our work, and that not only opened thousands and thousands of minds, it also won the Walkley Award for Social Equity Journalism, the Human Rights Award, and Best Documentary from the Asian Broadcasting Uni.
[00:42:57] Mm. Then one year later, the doco Scarlet Road, featuring sex worker Dr. Rachel Wotton, a founding member of Touching Base.
[00:43:03] Katia Schwartz: Mm.
[00:43:04] Saul Isbister: That program was broadcast four times on SBS, which was one of the commissioning, um, bodies, and it features several of Rachel's clients with disability, and that was broadcast in countries and dozens of film festivals around the world, and also won several awards.
[00:43:20] So by now we're obviously seeing that the topic being explored in film, and people willing to not just view it, but to celebrate it. So this year we've started our new campaign, Physical Intimacy Is a Human Right, Not an Extra, and we're really excited to have gained a grant from the JMF Fund in Australia to produce six five-minute advocacy videos of people with disability providing testimony of their experiences of exploring and expressing discovering their sexuality.
[00:43:49] The last interview was just filmed this week, and the series will be, um, finalized in the first half of next year, along with an advocacy skills kit. So this is a really exciting project, and everyone involved is committed to succeeding. Mm. But just as a note of an advocacy point, in the current political environment of really harsh and severe NDIS cutbacks, we know it's not a time to seek legislative changes to get the ban on sex services removed from the NDIS Act.
[00:44:19] However, if we can get the NDIA to narrow its operational definition of sexual services, as was intended by parliamentarians, instead of banning all sex services as it does now, that would clear a critical barrier to meeting reasonable and necessary disability-related sexual support needs of some NDIS participants.
[00:44:43] Katia Schwartz: Mm.
[00:44:45] Maddy Stratten: Mm. Thanks so much, Saul. It's really great to, um, reflect back on those early days of Touching Base, and then to hear this work that's, you know, being released in early 2027. It's, it's quite, quite a journey, and I think, personally I've been reflecting back on 2017 when the team at Caddyshack, Project delivered On The Couch in person, no technology, no recording, just very real face-to-face conversations.
[00:45:13] And Saul, you were a guest along with the amazing Julie Bates who, AO now, and literally sitting on the couch sharing stories and breaking down stigma around people with a disability accessing sex worker services. And to be doing this work, um, now in 2026 and moving into 2027 is, is quite a legacy. And so, um, yeah, thank you so much for sharing and reflecting back with us.
[00:45:39] Um, I'll hand over, Katia to, um, also respond to how you challenge stigma and overcome discrimination.
[00:45:47] Katia Schwartz: I think that my existence itself is resistance. Um, so I think there's just something inherently disruptive about being openly deaf and disabled and a sex worker. Like existing in a world that keeps telling me that these identities aren't supposed to coexist together.
[00:46:08] Um, you know society is so uncomfortable, because bodies don't fit neatly into these expectations about, sexuality, beauty, gender, and, like respectability as well. And I think that visibility can change that. Um, I don't want my deafness to be treated as something tragic, like that I've overcome.
[00:46:32] Um, and I don't want my sex work to be treated as something shameful that needs to be explained. I'm proud of both of those things, even though both of those things are hard sometimes. Mm. Um, and I think I just, I think it's also worth noting, like, being publicly out as a sex worker, is a huge privilege.
[00:46:53] Um, uh, a lot of sex workers can't safely be visible, because of stigma and and discrimination. It affects stuff like housing, employment, um, like relationships with our families and, and just our general safety. And so I think, like, resistance isn't always about being publicly loud.
[00:47:18] Like, sometimes resistance is just simply just existing as a human, um, and just working and building community and, refusing to internalize what, um, society tells us that we're supposed to be.
[00:47:36] Saul Isbister: Mm.
[00:47:38] Winnie Adamson: I love that. I think that's so true. Um, and yeah, you're right, we don't always need to be loud. And also, it's those small interactions and everyday experiences that build and change the world that we live in, right?
[00:47:51] Mm. And really challenge those views. And I was reflecting on what you said earlier, Katia, about constantly having to rewire the way we're thinking because we've been so programmed in certain ways, and I think that comes into it too. It's also doing our own personal work to keep making sure what we're putting out in the world is really open and welcoming to all diverse experiences.
[00:48:18] Um, I wanna dive more into that advocacy, . I think it's important that sexual services are recognized as legitimate services for people with disability, where they may be currently unable to enjoy intimacy, sexual pleasure, and release, and with another person, or to sexually express themselves in any other way.
[00:48:38] What is included in sexual services? Can you expand on this a bit further? Thinking especially about our audience and anyone wanting to refer sexual services for clients they have with disability
[00:48:52] Saul Isbister: Well, I think it's helpful to start by understanding the support staff can't provide.
[00:48:58] So support workers can't help a person to position them sexually, help with the penetration of any opening, for example, putting a penis inside an anus, physically assist with masturbation, for example, physically guiding someone's hand to masturbate if they have dexterity or movement problems, um, be in the room during a sexual act, or put on or insert contraception or sex toys that need to be inserted, for example, putting a condom on a penis or inserting a dildo into a vagina.
[00:49:28] Katia Schwartz: Mm.
[00:49:28] Saul Isbister: So people who need these sorts of physical assistance, they can't look to their regular support staff to help with this. Mm. The diverse roles that sex workers play kind of reflect the motivations that disabled clients have to see sex workers, and these go well beyond needs of the physical supports that we've just gone through there.
[00:49:47] So I've got a quick list of motivations for seeing sex services here as outlined in Dr. Rachel Wotton's fantastic PhD research exploring the, the experiences of people with disability who access sex services in Australia. So these are for sexual enjoyments, a desire for sexual variety, a lack of other sexual o- outlets, to increase sexual literacy, therapeutic healing, recovery and rehabilitation, combating loneliness and feelings of isolation, and seeking genuine intimacy and connection.
[00:50:27] So sex workers can play a wide range of roles meeting those motivations of the people who seek them.
[00:50:36] Winnie Adamson: Mm-hmm. did you wanna, um, share your thoughts or your experience here?
[00:50:43] Katia Schwartz: Yeah, I think, I think sometimes when people hear the term like sexual services, um, they often imagine like a very narrow version of what sex work actually is.
[00:50:58] Because sex work can involve a huge range of different experiences. So, sometimes a client wants sexual intimacy, sometimes they want touch, sometimes they want companionship, sometimes they wanna go on a date, sometimes they want kinky stuff, you know. Um, and I've worked with disabled clients where part of what we're doing is actually just like building confidence, um, around dating and intimacy and communication and to be honest, like I also do this with clients that don't have a disability
[00:51:31] Um, so yeah, I think like sex workers play a, a really huge role and they should play a huge role, in practical, sex education-
[00:51:42] Winnie Adamson: Mm ...
[00:51:42] Katia Schwartz: um, and consent because sex workers are experts in consent. Um, like th- this is our thing. It's what we're good at. I've worked with neurodivergent clients, where you know, how do you recognize another person's boundaries?
[00:51:56] Maddy Stratten: Mm.
[00:51:57] Katia Schwartz: Um, , how do, how do you communicate what you want?
[00:52:00] Um, I think it's really difficult for, neurodivergent people especially to be, like, navigating some of the unwritten social rules, like, about dating and intimacy. Um, and that can be really hard to navigate, and know what to do. And I think also, like, if you look at it from a practical perspective, traditional sex education i- you know, for those who have even had it at all, uh, is extremely clinical.
[00:52:30] And it's always, hetero. Mm. And it's also always focused on risk. And I think, yeah, there's, like, a huge difference between somebody clinically demonstrating how to put a condom on, somebody's genitals, um, and learning how to actually incorporate safer sex into a real sexual interaction.
[00:52:50] . Rather than just being told those things by, like, a teacher. Um, you know, and it's about checking in with your, with your client or your, or your partner as well. Like, how's things going? Um, because consent is something that's ongoing, and it can be changed at, at, at any time. So just having a communicative experience is important.
[00:53:15] Um, and sex workers just have so much practical knowledge about this., We do this stuff all the time. We communicate, we've got very strict boundaries of what, uh, is included in a service. And I don't think that, society recognizes that enough, that we have that skill.
[00:53:30] Um, and that skill is so specialized. Like, I do bookings with clients all the time who are couples, you know? It's a, um, they're a straight couple, and I'm going, "What is happening? What are you guys doing? Like, no one likes any of this. You don't like that. You don't like that." You know, no one's checking in.
[00:53:50] You guys have been together for, like, you know, 20 years, and you're all just having a bad time. And I think, and I look at that and I, and I go, "Oh my God, these people, they just, they just need a sex worker to come in and be like, 'You're doing it all wrong.'" Um, and I think, like, on the other side of that, it's for people with disability, often, the only touch they experience is through a glove- Mm
[00:54:16] like a latex glove. Mm.
[00:54:18] Maddy Stratten: Um,
[00:54:19] Katia Schwartz: and I think that, seeing a sex worker gives them an opportunity to experience skin-to-skin human touch, um, and to feel, wanted, feeling like their bodies aren't a clinical, medical thing, that needs to be, like, managed. Um, yeah, it's like intimacy- Mm ... isn't just this, like, frivolous extra, being touched, um, having somebody's skin, connect with yours, and having agency and, feeling wanted, and being able to, like, explore all of those things is just really meaningful.
[00:54:55] Maddy Stratten: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Thank you so much. I think, you know, expanding our definitions of what's included in sex worker services is so important and, hearing those stories that you've shared with us I think will really, stay with us as we- Mm
[00:55:10] as we move on beyond this episode. Um, look, we are coming to the end of our episode today, and we called this episode Accessibility is Sexy. So for our last question, anything that you wanna wrap up here, share any practical ways with our audience on how they can advocate in this space and for the dignity to say yes.
[00:55:32] I'll hand over to you first, Saul.
[00:55:34] Saul Isbister: Well, If you want to get involved in our campaign, go to the campaign site of our website, read all about it, and you can sign up to be ke- kept informed as the campaign unfolds. So a primary case study we explore is the experience of Sue and Francis.
[00:55:49] They're a married couple who both have cerebral palsy, and it's a really moving story that highlights the personal struggles and negative health consequences that they face since the NDIS stopped funding a sex worker to support them to enjoy their marital conjugal rights to have sex.
[00:56:09] Katia Schwartz: Mm.
[00:56:09] Saul Isbister: So read the stories, follow us off, on our social media channels, and we'd love you to see you adding comments or joining in the conversations.
[00:56:17] We need keyboard warriors on our side too. Mm. Um, and we're also recruiting to take volunteers for some of our key roles, so you can check out the Support Us section on our website. We'd love to hear from you if you're willing to share skills, um, somewhere where they would be truly appreciated.
[00:56:35] Katia Schwartz: Um, I guess , the biggest thing I wanna say is that, people with disability are, are just like everyone else. Um, you know, not all of us want sex, but some of us do. And, not all of us want relationships, not all of us want intimacy.
[00:56:53] Um, like, just like everyone else. So, um, the LGBT community, also, intersects with the disability community. Mm. And I think, like, at the end of the day, it's like, we all should have the right to desire things and make decisions and take ordinary risks and have relationships and have sex and, like, make mistakes or change our minds, um, like, explore our bodies.
[00:57:18] Nobody has the right, to make decisions about another person's body without them being part of that. Um, and I think everyone should have the opportunity to, like, decide that for ourselves. Mm-hmm. And I want, like, disabled sex workers to be part of that conversation too.
[00:57:38] We exist, we're here. Um, and for me, being deaf is not a deficit, and being a sex worker, is not a weakness. I'm really proud to be part of both of those, communities. And, um, both of those communities hold a lot of, knowledge about, communication and consent and autonomy and, um, access to what it means to have ownership of your own body.
[00:58:04] And I think, like, that's what I think this conversation comes back to. It's like- Mm ... disabled people deserve autonomy over our bodies. Sex workers deserve autonomy over our bodies. And genuine accessibility means, like, giving people these tools and opportunities to exercise that. Um, including the dignity to say yes or no.
[00:58:26] Maddy Stratten: Yeah.
[00:58:27] Katia Schwartz: Yeah. Amazing.
[00:58:28] Saul Isbister: I would just like to finish just by saying, one of my favorite sex worker quotes comes from Dr. Rachel Wotton's earlier research into sex workers who provide services to clients with disability in New South Wales, Australia, which was published in 2016, and we share this during our workshop. It's about, it's about way seeing clients with disability has enhanced and widened understanding.
[00:58:49] Katia Schwartz: Mm.
[00:58:50] Saul Isbister: Being challenged to be sexually creative when someone has limited movement or dexterity, and in doing so, discovering that a person's sexuality is not defined or necessarily limited by the body that they inhabit, but it is only limited by our imagination and our willingness to explore. So rather than focusing on what people may not be able to do, focus on fun ways to explore what they can.
[00:59:22] Winnie Adamson: Thanks for listening to On The Couch. We create this podcast because we're allies in actively challenging discrimination, microaggressions, and exclusionary behaviors.
[00:59:39] Maddy Stratten: We wanna create spaces where people feel safe to share their thoughts, knowing that they will be heard and respected. Such an environment fosters collaboration, innovation, and contributes to a more inclusive society.
[00:59:51] Winnie Adamson: Follow us on your favorite podcast platform. That way, you will receive every new episode when it's released. You can also help us grow the podcast by giving us a rating and leaving us a review.
[01:00:01] Maddy Stratten: Connect with us on Instagram, Facebook, and LinkedIn, and share On The Couch with your friends, colleagues, and family.
[01:00:08] Winnie Adamson: On The Couch is made by the team at Caddyshack Project. Until next time, peace, love, and protection.